MSU-Iowa Aftermisery Thread
by KJ@theonlycolors on Oct 24, 2009 11:12 PM CDT
in Michigan State Spartans Football
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PrintCollege football is a binary world. Tonight, the two results in play for MSU were more extreme than they usually are:
Option 1: Big Ten front runner.
Option 2: Hey, Insight Bowl! Hopefully!
Man, Option 1 looked awfully good there for a minute (a minute and 37 seconds, to be precise).
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The only thing a prevent defense ever prevents is winning
You can say what you want about penalties, that missed fumble call at the end or the other stuff… but why why why why do we go away from the pressure defense that had been hurrying and confusing Stanzi all day and go to the rush 3, everyone else play soft zone coverage when they had 2 minutes and two timeouts? If we just keep progressing along the path we had been going for the entire game, we win. Period.
At some point, we need to stop losing (or almost losing) games due to this very common mistake.
"It's a trap!"
I think Iowa fell on the fumble at the other end anyway. Hard to tell for sure.
Not bringing the big blitz is probably a good idea, as that has too much risk of leaving somebody wide open. But at the same time, the prevent is a terrible decision. Frankly, there’s so much evidence against the prevent at this point (especially in college, where the clock doesn’t even keep running if they get a first down) that its use in situations other than a single Hail Mary or up multiple scores with two minutes to go ought to be grounds for immediate firing. The only reason it isn’t is that apparently there are enough idiots out there who believe it works that finding somebody good who wouldn’t use it is insanely difficult.
I am not saying that we should “bring the house” blitzing at the end there, and conservative calls are just fine. But when you are simply rushing 3 guys and sitting back in a soft zone, you are playing prevent. We were throwing Stanzi off his game all day with 4 and 5 man rushes, and that should have continued along with tight coverage.
How many times have we let a team right back into a game (or lost a game, as we did today) due to this sort of idiocy in the last 3 years?
"It's a trap!"
by AdmiralAkbar on Oct 25, 2009 12:03 AM CDT up reply actions
Not disagreeing with you in any way
(In fact, my rant in the other thread said pretty much the same thing.)
It’s even worse than this.
If the 5th DB was a stud talentwise compared to the 4th D-linemen, then you MIGHT be inclined to argue for a bias toward the prevent in some instances. (Though I tend to agree with all that has been said and hate the damn thing just on principle.)
But MSU’s defense is just the opposite. Pulling that 4th D-linemen off the field and replacing him with ANYBODY else from the defense is doing measurable harm every time it is tried. It’s clearly sapping the strength from the heart of a surprisingly good defense and should have been stopped about three games ago.
Taking one for the conference
I’m no conspiracy theorist. I don’t think there were any secret memos from the Big 10 executives to their minions mandating an Iowa victory. But the fact remains that an Iowa loss would have been disastrous for the conference, in terms of national reputation, recruiting, etc. Other facts are that the flags on Jeremy Ware for his hit on Sandeman and on C. L. Rucker for jamming the receiver at the line of scrimmage came well after the plays were over. And Iowa was somehow able to run 4 plays in the final 15 seconds, the last of which resulted in a conference-face-saving victory for our current last hopes for conference respectability. Kudos to the Hawkeyes, who took advantage of their opportunities, but I really feel bad for the Spartans, especially the defense, who deserved a better fate.
I was actually saying much of the same thing during the game, especially about the Ware hit. Just because the guy is twiching on the ground doesn’t change the play that occurred. I happen to think that is a clean hit, and will continue to do so no matter what you show me or tell me, but even if it HAD been called as a personal foul immediately, I would have an easier time accepting it.
This sort of revisionist history based on subsequent outcomes is criminal at best. The previous actions do not change because the ball was intercepted afterward or because the guy got injured on the play. It is either a penalty when it occurred, or not.
I tend to think this is just poor officiating rather than some sort of conspiracy. Why MSU always seems to come out on the wrong end of these calls through the years is becoming a bit of a concern though.
"It's a trap!"
by AdmiralAkbar on Oct 25, 2009 12:07 AM CDT up reply actions
1) 4 plays in 15 seconds isn’t the least bit unusual when you’re running nothing but quick slants to the end zone from seven yards out. (And really, after 2001 we should be the last to be surprised about how many plays can be run in a given time.)
2) Totally agreed on the Ware hit, though. A very hard, but clean, hit (he led with his hands, not his helmet). If it wasn’t a foul originally, the fact that the receiver got KO’d doesn’t change that.
3) If the Rucker flag you’re talking about was on the interception, the flag came well before the interception occurred and was blatantly obvious. When you shove the receiver five yards out of bounds eight yards downfield as the pass is being thrown, you’re going to get called for it every single time. (If it’s a different play, it’s one I’ve forgotten about.)
The result wasn't entirely unexpected, though the way it arrived was.
To get kicked in the gut on the last play of the game — for the second time this year — is what’s really annoying. But honestly, MSU played the #6 team in the country to a stalemate for 58.5 minutes. No shame in that at all.
MSU is now 4th in the Big Ten, although the three teams tied for 5th have a game in hand. I think ultimately MSU finishes 5th in the B11 at 7-5 , although T-4th at 8-4 is not out of the question. And who would honestly complain about that outcome?
What a kick to the chest.
1) I thought it was a clean hit from Ware as well, but the emphasis is on hits to the head, where his helmet did make contact with the head of the Iowa receiver. Late flags suck, though.
2) Rucker penalty on the INT was entirely warranted. What’s he doing? Good lord.
3) I’ve hated the prevent from the first day I was able to think strategically. Why drastically change your defensive methods at the end of the game and, in college, let teams rack up first downs? And with that much time and 2 TO’s left for Iowa? You serious? Might as well been half a quarter remaining as that was the easiest 2-minute drill ever.
Then they finally do bring the blitz inside the red zone but didn’t get to Stanzi at all.
4) I take no solace in playing the No. 6 team in the nation tough because Iowa is far, far, far from the 6th best team in the nation with that offense. I’m not a believer and I’d say their defense is a tick better than MSU’s at this point and MSU’s offense is better than Iowa’s. I honestly don’t think we’re that far away from Iowa in talent. Just poor reliance on a terrible defensive scheme that is playing to not lose rather than playing to win cost us the game.
5) Is this the worst Big Ten season in _? I know it gets said nationally every year Ohio State gets trounced in a BCS bowl game, but seriously, who’s the best team in the conference? Is Ricky Stanzi a QB to lead a team to a BCS Bowl? Really Really? I still think it’s probably Penn State simply because they don’t make as many mistakes on offense as Terrelle Pryor (why doesn’t he just use his athleticism? Why doesn’t the Sweater Vest make him use his athleticism? I don’t understand thing. Tressell’s job is to win football games first, prepare players for the NFL second, but I digress). But I’m not sure the top team in the B11 is even worthy of the top 20 in the nation, to be honest. This conference is incredibly mediocre.
And now at Beyond the Boxscore and Project Prospect!
Point by point, we mostly agree
1) I think this is a bogus rule when “leading with the helmet” already exists and should be enforced, and I don’t think Ware was doing anything dirty or malicious.
THAT SAID, the way the rule has been interpreted this season, it’s an easy call, and the recent spate of medical research supports why they’re more eager to make that call. I don’t like it either and I think the research says more about the inherently violent and destructive nature of the sport than about “dirty play,” but if they’re calling that penalty this year, they have to call that hit.
That it came so late is really bullcrap—it should have come sooner—but who knows what sort of review that play went under by officials before the call.
2) Glad we agree. SpartyMSU is going ballistic, but that call was so, so obvious. Rucker didn’t exactly put up a fight when it was called.
3) This is always the diciest proposition, just because if the QB reads a straight cover two/three and he’s got four receivers out, a quick audible to an All Go later and you’re throwing a brick through the TV and wondering why the defense didn’t have enough people back with less than 90 seconds left in the game. It’s not easy.
That said, as previous posters have mentioned and as the stats bear out, MSU’s pass defense is not strong, and a lot of that has to do with the lack of depth; does another DB really do more for your pass defense than a fourth rusher? Coaches make that error too often. Norm Parker does too, and I’d never trade him for another DC.
4) Obviously, we’re not going to come to an easy consensus here, but this is a 60-minute, 85-man game, and Iowa’s resume thus far stacks up with just about anybody’s. Most of the teams in the top 10 don’t look like they deserve it. I will agree that talent-wise, MSU isn’t that far behind. That much was plainly obvious. It’s what teams do on the field week-in and week-out, rather than basing your estimations on ideals of “top 5 quality” or “top 10 quality” and compartmentalizing them into irrelevance.
5) The data bear this point out—the BXI is WEEEEAK this year. Based on that, even if Iowa runs the table (unlikely), I don’t think they go to the title game unless they got some serious help from teams above them. Cincy might even end up with a better resume if they win out. It sucks.
The nature of the Big Ten, though, means that I’d take the BXI’s 8th best team over any other conference’s 8th best. Take from that what you will.
Anyway, hel of a fight tonight, guys, hope all of your players are healthy, both teams deserved to win, have a good and safe night.
I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks
Regarding point 3, I would much rather get burned on a bomb over the top than dink and dunked all the way down the field playing the prevent because the prevent is seemingly the polar opposite of what our defense is predicated on. If we were a more passive defense, then I’m 100% okay with the prevent because it’s most similar to what we run. However, we don’t, we blitz a lot and Stanzi clearly wasn’t handling it/the blitz was working. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. If Stanzi were to finally hit someone over our DB’s in a TD that came in the face of a blitz, then I’d stand and applaud him for making a play. Instead, it feels like the snatching defeat from the jaws of victory feeling that MSU’s instilled in me. It sucks. Sometimes I just wish I rooted for a perennial powerhouse in football.
And now at Beyond the Boxscore and Project Prospect!
Best team in conference...
…has to be Iowa; they beat Penn State in Happy Valley and right now I think they will beat OSU who has looked unimpressive. This Iowa team just keeps finding new and exciting ways to win.
And as far as incredibly mediocre major conferences go this year, look no further than the Big Twelve. Texas is the only legitimate contender for a BCS bowl.
Two comments, then I'll let it go
I’m not sure if the Rucker penalty was justified or not. I saw one replay on the Big Ten Network and it sure seemed the flag was late, but that may have just been the TV status bar. I don’t think you can say that it was “so, so obvious”. See Joe Rexrode’s blog (http://noise.typepad.com/hey_joe/2009/10/eighty-fived.html) for example.
On the final 15 seconds I’ve read some comments that MSU has no gripe because it was “our” clock operator. In fact, since Lloyd Carr petitioned the league after the notorious clock game in 2001, “time is kept on the field by a neutral official appointed by the Big Ten. The official can be recognized by his red hat and earphones.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Michigan_vs._Michigan_State_football_game).
Rucker
. . . he very clearly held the receiver. It was the right call.
"Do not cheat your team or your teammates. Know your plays. Block. Protect. Add to what we are trying to do."
The Only Colors
Yep. Held and kept holding. He probably could have gotten away with a quick clutch and release but he didn’t do that.
by intrpdtrvlr on Oct 25, 2009 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Or if...
…the reciever hadn’t fallen down after he let go.
I would like to thank the Big 10 network for being slow with the flag graphic. Those seconds of running around the living room euphoria were nice and prolonged because they aren’t very good at their jobs.
by witless chum on Oct 26, 2009 5:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Rucker threw the receiver out of bounds eight yards downfield and the flag came in a good second or two before the ball was caught (the TV status bar was slow to show it). If they’re not going to call that one, they might as well allow cagefighting in the defensive backfield. Anyone complaining about that watched a very different replay than I did.
The flag on the Ware hit was the only dubious one, and the no-call on the fumble as well (though Iowa apparently came out of the pile with the ball, making it moot).
OK, I lied
I said I’d let it go, but I found the ESPN highlight on YouTube and watched it numerous times. Yes, it was a good call. No it wasn’t extremely blatant. Rucker engaged him at the line of scrimmage and maintained contact for about 7 yards. Thus the flag. But he kept his hands inside the receiver’s pads and released when the ball was in the air. The receiver, who had been pushing to get free, suddenly had no resistance and fell down, his own weight and momentum carrying his feet out of bounds. In the NFL it would be illegal contact. Holding (or possibly illegal use of hands) would be the close equivalent in college.
Well, that's what they called
It was defensive holding, not pass interference, right?
I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks
correct.
"Do not cheat your team or your teammates. Know your plays. Block. Protect. Add to what we are trying to do."
The Only Colors
I wasn't contesting the specific infraction
Just trying to make it clear that it was neither obvious nor blatant. In fact, it was the receiver falling down (not being shoved out of bounds) that probably prompted the flag, as similar plays go uncalled in every game.
Fire Narduzzi
I put this loss entirely on him. There is two minutes left and MSU goes into a soft zone on defense only rushing 3. So, no pass rush and the WRs eventually get open for big gains.
The clock stops on every first down. It is ridiculous to think you can wait out the clock and get a win in this situation. I’ve been calling for his head all year and he has to be fired. I believe his scheme and lack of adjustsments have cost MSU 3 games this year.
I think everyone needs to get onboard with the Fire Narduzzi band wagon.
The problem with the 3-man rush is so clear because Narduzzi’s defense is doing such a fine job when the 4th linemen is in there (which is most of the time.) This defense has been getting markedly better every season:
2006: 28.4 ppg allowed (last year of JLS)
2007: 26.6 ppg
2008: 22.1 ppg
2009: 20.8 ppg (so far)
For some perspective, Saban’s 1999 team is widely regarded as having one of the best MSU defenses ever (and definitely the best one of the last 15 years.) That team allowed 20.4 ppg. His 1997 team was better: 19.8 ppg.
And this season isn’t over — the last four games they’ve allowed far less than 20 ppg, despite playing 3 spread offenses. This could end up being the best defense MSU has had in a long, long time. And the trend indicates that the improvements may just keep rolling next year.
Narduzzi’s preference for the 3-man rush late in games is indeed annoying. But it’s also a quite common affliction amongst DCs. (And who knows: I’m not a coach — MAYBE there’s something I’m missing.)
Bottom line: Narduzzi is doing great work and talk of firing him is way off base.
I think what you’re missing is that coaches don’t want to get the blame for allowing the deep ball. Trouble is, anybody with any sense knows that you don’t have to give them 20 yards every play for free and put absolutely no pressure on the QB to take away the deep ball.
Deep ball
As noted, the bias for going prevent late in games is everywhere in football — so replacing one guy isn’t going to change it. For all we know, Narduzzi is a riverboat gambler who would LOVE to ditch the prevent and Dantonio is the conventional thinker who can’t let it go.
Either way, both men have done more than enough to earn my respect for the overwhelming balance of their decision making. I just don’t agree with this particular aspect of it.
And hey, maybe there’s another wild factor that can’t be seen unless you watch the films and practice the team. Maybe it’s easier to adjust the DBs during the hurry-up than the DL’s, or something equally small but critical. Without a direct answer from the people making the decision, one could speculate all day about this.
But from the info we have in the armchairs and bleachers… yeah, it doesn’t make much sense at all.
What is acceptable to you?
http://www.theonlycolors.com/2009/10/9/1077716/2008-defensive-scheme
If MSU losing like they did against Iowa. Like they did against Michigan in 2007. Like they almost did against Michigan this year. Like they did against CMU. Like they did against ND. If losing in this manner is acceptable to you. If knowing that no game in the 4th quarter will be safe because MSU will switch to this scheme and get gutted, then yes, keep Pat Narduzzi.
I believe this is not acceptable. Pat does not make adjustments. He runs his base defense and that is it. He has two formations. 4-3 and the Nickel package, which is the 3-3. This is the only defense I know of that pulls out a defensive lineman to go to the nickel package. And MSU is taking out a superior player to keep an inferior one on the field. Pulling either 70 Wilson or 99 Worthy to keep 34 Denson on the field does not make any sense. Wilson and Worthy will do a better job of getting pressure than Denson can do covering anyone. That 3 LB setup is what Narduzzi runs. Its what Narduzzi has always run. It is what he is always going to run.
I expect more. I expect better. I expect half time adjustments. Pat is not making them. He has done great work getting MSU to this level, but to move forward towards 10 win season and Big Ten championships, MSU needs to make a change of the DC.
They gave up O-N-E touchdown. That’s generally going to win what .. 95+ percent of the games played?
I think you need to consider that MSU has something like the 82nd best running game in the nation right now. This, mind you, from what is supposed to be a team that builds its offense around the running game. Yes, it’s nice to have a better than decent passing game, but the offense is still completely a work in progress this season because the large stable of RB’s has been slower than expected to develop.
Without Blair White as a security blanket, this would be an awful mess. I’m far more worried about the OFFENSE next year than the defense. (In truth, I suspect both will be better.)
The defense has been steadily and now substantially improving every game. If Minnesota hangs 30 on them, maybe we’ll talk. But I suspect another single TD performance is in the offing.
I don’t think ANYBODY deserves to be removed after where this coaching staff has brought this team in just three seasons from winning ONE conference game, but the defensive coaches are the last place where there needs to be heads rolling.
MSU has...
…also run other defensive formations during Narduzzi’s time here, including the 0-5-6.
I don’t buy calling for coordinators to be fired simply because we don’t know how much power Dantonio is giving them.
I’m also skeptical that going to prevent late isn’t statistically the best plan. That’s the definition of something you’ll remember when it doesn’t work.
by witless chum on Oct 26, 2009 6:03 AM CDT up reply actions
True, there’s probably some selection bias. But there’s no way the prevent is statistically right in college. With the clock stopping for every first down, a soft zone that allows ten yards a play is a hand-signed invitation to get to the red zone in 45 seconds or less. The prevent is designed for situations like 20 seconds left, they don’t have a timeout, NFL clock rules – force them to go up the middle and they’ll be lucky to get one play after they spike it. 100 seconds, with the clock stopping on first downs, the math is entirely different and you’re better off with a standard nickel or dime package that puts a little extra emphasis on sideline and deep routes but doesn’t completely ignore the dump-offs over the middle.
I don’t agree with Narduzzi, but I’d like to see what the average scoring environment in the late 90’s in the big ten was compared to what it is today. Always helps me contextualize it in my mind. Gotta have a bar against which to measure, y’know?
And now at Beyond the Boxscore and Project Prospect!
IF you watch a replay of the clock
Iowa actually was jobbed one second on those last three plays. So the clock complaint by Dantonio is not supported by the evidence. As for the Ware hit, I actually think he might be suspended for one game by the conference for a) the hit and b) the brief taunting he did afterward. The rule on that is crystal, like it or not, and it is a NCAA rule that has been beefed up two years in a row…that you cannot lead with your head on a defenseless receiver. The NFL is even more clear on it than college…and for good reason, they pay those guys millions and they don’t want to pay those guys millions while they sit in a hospital. Finally, that flagrant foul was called on second down, so while it clearly helped Iowa’s cause, it was not a fourth down play, it was not the be all, end all; and as you have all said here, you were in a very soft prevent that might have given up a first down on the very next play anyway.
I can assure you Ferentz would not have entered the press room challenging the clock issue. We had one in our first game, after the first block against UNI. There was magically 1 second left which allowed UNI that now famous second kick. He asked the refs for an explanation—he got it and never mentioned it again, moved on, next play. And for good reason, the refs NEVER reverse those calls so all you are doing is distracting your team from the job at hand by bitching.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
and as you have all said here, you were in a very soft prevent that might have given up a first down on the very next play anyway.
Not until the last drive. Which that was not. (Though Iowa may well have converted anyway, as you say.)
Clock issue, though, is a nonstarter for me. There was time. Anyone who’s arguing otherwise (including Dantonio) is nuts.
Dantonio has backed off his initial complaints about the clock.
I can’t find a transcript of the Sunday media podcast, but it’s in there. (H/T: Joe Rexrode).
“Finally, that flagrant foul was called on second down…”
That foul was so “flagrant” that it almost didn’t get called until this Wednesday.
If the flag doesn’t come out, it’s 3rd and 7. Care to guess how many 3rd downs of seven or more yards that Iowa converted to that point?
ZERO for six tries. That penalty was the first one “converted” — but obviously only because of the foul. A tackle was going to be made either way.
Two clean (not penalty assisted) third downs of seven or better happened on the final drive with (as mentioned) our strange tradition of using 3 defensive linemen when four have been doing a splendid job all game.
Iowa’s passes were getting just over five yards per try. The runs less than four. And that INCLUDES the final TD drive.
So, when Michigan State used four d-lineman, Iowa never converted on third down when they needed at least seven yards. The odds of the Iowa drive stalling out on the very next play after the personal foul call was very high. That would have meant no field goal.
Of course, taking three points away from Iowa sends the game to overtime if they score on the final drive — so no assumptions about how that would have turned out.
But a personal foul call that you have to think about before tossing a flag is a contradiction in terms. It doesn’t take anything away from Iowa deserving the win (which they did) to observe that the referee — while not deciding the game — certainly changed it in a way that he should not have.
And if a suspension comes out, then one must ask why an ejection was not forthcoming at the moment of the event? Is it because the referee is still trying to decide what he saw?
My point is that
the refs were intimidated by the locale. If that same hit happens in Iowa City, those flags are coming right away. But, flagrant fouls like this one or a hit to the head of the QB often have slow flags. Refs want to “get it right.”
Bottom line, I am saying that this was not a 4th down calls (or even a third down call) so one cannot say definitively what would have happened.
Iowa fans were very skeptical of the holding call when we drove to the one yard line. The MSU linebacker fell down while “near” the Iowa left guard and we were called for holding. From my POV and I have looked at it several times on TIVO, that was a bogus call. That led to a FG. The way the game was going, if we score 7 there it might be ball game. Calls happen. You move on.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
I live outside the BTN area...
… so didn’t see the game, just various internet highlights and reading. This is coming from an MSU fan, I pretty much agree with you. Didn’t see the personal foul call, but it doesn’t change the disaster the MSU D was in general in the last drive.
I'm sorry...
The notion that the refs were intimidated by the environment is delusional.
I saw the hit live, in the environment. And I watched the full second half on BTN the next morning. In neither instance did the crowd or the announcers make mention of the possibility of a penalty UNTIL the flag came out very late. There was at least one — perhaps even TWO — replays of the hit, with nary a word of a penalty from anybody.
“Flagrant” is a curious choice of words.
Yes, it could have been flagged right away. It just as easily could NOT have been flagged. It was a judgment call that referees are paid to make. This one decided to choose option C — “All of the above” — based upon the aftermath of the hit, rather than what he saw in real time.
And the result with no flag is 3rd and 7 — a play that Iowa was unable to make all night against that defensive front. One can say definitively that 15 yards at midfield in that situation after a dramatic stop was a big deal.
Ken...
So are you saying that if the flag came out immediately it is a good call. That makes ZERO sense. It is either a correct call or not. The speed of the flag is a red herring. Every Saturday there are at least two or three flags that are slow to come out. You judge a call on the call, not the timeframe of the flag toss. Next thing you know you will be arguing that a flag was tossed to early, to high in the air, too low on the ground. Also, the most oft cited reason for slow flags is official responsbility. Each official has area of responsbility in a game. The umpire is the free agent. He threw the flag after realizing the line judge was not going to toss his—and that guy may not have done so due to his angle. This is how the system works.
As for the announcers, they were idiots. Go to YouTube and type in flagrant foul and watch a few of them. The vast majority are much more tame or questionable than this one and in most cases the announcers are vehement that they were correct calls. I would never base my analysis on a hack BTN play-by-play guy. Finally, Ware taunted the receiver on the ground, it is there for all the world to see. That alone was a flag. Go read the rules on helmet to helmet. They have been strengthened each of the past two years.
You sound like Dantonio who after the game threw it all up against the wall to see what would stick. He blamed the clock operator. He blamed the personal foul call. He blamed the holding call. To his credit he has peeled back on the clock issue and the holding call. Bottom line, the Big Ten is likely to cite this as a clear cut flagrant and may even suspend the dude.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
Yet again. . .
The claim, certainly debatable, is that the flag was thrown not because of the nature of the hit but because of the apparent severity of the outcome – Sandeman dropping the ball immediately, stiffening up, arm twitching, etc. And, yes, quite obviously, it was a big, big call.
I made no reference to the players health
one way or the other. There are now 10 websites that make the play look much worse than I thought. The MSU player left his feet and aimed at his head. It isn’t even debateable anymore.
Your bigger issue is your coach’s first reaction after having about 8 opportunities to stop Iowa on the final drive, was to a) blame the clock, b) blame the holding, c) blame the flagrant.
He gathered himself a day later but, leadership is how you respond to failure, not success. I give him an F for last night and a B today. He still is clinging to the debate over the hold. What message is he sending to the players? The refs and the Big Ten do not want us to win? Everyone else needs to improve but not us? What?
I don’t get it. I had high hopes for the guy…but…
You know, Ferentz has a motto on ref calls. Empty barrels make louder noises. Dantonio needs to meet with Izzo…who would NEVER bitch about a call. Never. That guy oozes class and leadership.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
Jeez…. Yes, judgment calls get made all the time by officials. That’s why we have replays and the phrase “incontrovertible video evidence.” Sometimes, even in super-slow-motion, a play is right on the borderline. Something like this happens in just about every other game.
So, the referee makes a call. Or not. Or in your world, both, depending upon what happens next. It’s all in the game, I guess.
He had his head up, attempting to line up a hit on a player who had crouched low to catch a ball and was coming up to turn and run down field. If he aims a few inches lower, there’s no helmet contact at all. (But maybe still a flag, based upon whether the player gets up…) Again, judgment calls on everyone.
I am stunned that this is a point of contention. But it’s not so surprising when I read…
“Ware taunted the receiver on the ground, it is there for all the world to see. That alone was a flag.”
No. Not even close. About 200 quarterbacks get sacked with far more theatrics and no flags every weekend. Ware got up, did appear to look down and say something, but was more intent on strutting away after doing so. In fact, it’s hard to discern any break in his forward momentum — he almost didn’t even hit the ground after the hit and just kept going forward downfield after he bounced back up.
Then he is quickly mobbed by about six of his friends as he is several paces beyond. Whatever he said was fast and he didn’t wait for a reply. If you flag that, then you’re going to put about 50 extra penalty yards into most games — pretty much EVERY sack celebration is going to draw about three flags each.
You may turn out to be a prophet about a suspension, however. If this officiating crew pulls another late flag in a situation like this, I’d bet that would get looked at very carefully.
And the first words out of Dantonio’s mouth, post game, were indeed a lot of blame. He blamed Iowa for making plays when they needed to in a very tough, physical, defense-minded game. Your characterization of his attitude is about as on point as your assertion of Ware’s taunt.
Addendum from Adam Rittenberg's blog
“After watching the tape several times, I think the officials made the call based more on how Sandeman looked after the play than what Ware did during it. Ware kept his head up and connected with Sandeman’s left shoulder and helmet. It wasn’t a direct helmet-to-helmet hit. I cringed as I saw Sandeman on the turf, and I think it influenced the late flag. And if you’re going to call a penalty there, call it right away. "
“The MSU player left his feet and aimed at his head. It isn’t even debateable anymore.”
No. It’s not. And now it’s pretty clear that you’re just making things up as you go along. First the “Ware taunted,” and now this.
This replay, 32 seconds in, shows the contact in slow motion. At the point of contact, Ware’s left foot is fully planted on the ground. Both feet are fully planted and running both before and after the hit.
Any fair observer can judge the “taunt” just afterward.
You haved a very good team with a classy coach that just won a tough game. I’m sorry that this isn’t enough for you.
Review this and get back to me.
I saw and heard this in real time, but here it is in living color.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_VYAuqDgN0hk/SuX8iFghqcI/AAAAAAAAC4Y/eplab1saYCc/sandemanhit.jpg
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
Not sure what your issue is here?
Your claim seems to be that somehow this was an obvious call? I think the fact that this discussion is going on here and all over the college football blogosphere, and that very reputable folks don’t see it that way has got to put that to rest. Iowa got the benefit of a close call. Could have gone either way. Congrats to you. Accept it and move on.
Must . . . get . . . this . . . thread . . . off . . . front . . . page
Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!
by KJ@theonlycolors on Oct 27, 2009 7:16 AM CDT reply actions
Done and done
Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!
by KJ@theonlycolors on Oct 27, 2009 7:35 AM CDT up reply actions
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