The Only Colors: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Around SBN: Defend That, Digger! The Overrated/underrated edition

Preseason Musings: Depth

Depth ratio, as formulated last June:

Depth Ratio = (minutes played by top two players) / (minutes played by 8th and 9th players)

This ratio allows us to compare a single number across different teams and captures two key aspects of having depth:

  • Not relying too heavily on one or two players to play nearly all of the minutes in important games, thereby reducing their ability to defend, rebound, and push the ball in transition with the intensity Izzo prefers.
  • Having enough bench players to allow everyone to play hard every minute they’re on the floor and be able to deal with foul trouble. Nearly every basketball team has to have seven guys who play significant minutes (five starters plus one perimeter bench player and one interior bench player). Having two more bench players you can count on is what sets a good Izzo team apart from other teams.

As applied to Izzo-era Michigan State basketball teams, the magic number turned out to be 3.00.  Teams with ratios below that number have hung some banners at Breslin.  Teams with ratios above that number, not so much.

Would the magic depth ratio rule hold for the 2008-09 season?

Star-divide

SeasonDepth RatioB10 RecordNCAA Result
2002-03 2.35 10 – 6 Elite 8
1998-99 2.62 15 – 1 Final 4
1999-2000 2.67 13 – 3 Nat Champ
2004-05 2.74 13 – 3 Final 4
2008-09 2.90 15 – 3 Nat Runner Up
2007-08 2.90 12 – 4 Sweet 16
1997-98 2.91 13 – 3 Sweet 16
2000-01 2.93 13 – 3 Final 4
2001-02 3.14 10 – 6 1st Rd Loss
1996-97 3.28 9 – 9
2006-07 3.96 8 – 8 2nd Rd Loss
2003-04 4.39 12 – 4 1st Rd Loss
2005-06 4.51 8 – 8 1st Rd Loss

In the immortal words of Marv Albert: Yes!

Now you could argue that MSU's depth ratio was somewhat artificially deflated since the #9 player, Marquise Gray, received extra playing time due to Goran Suton's injury early in the season.  But the team also had a #10 player, Korie Lucious, who averaged 9.0 minutes/game.  This was a classically-deep Tom Izzo team.

Here's how the players on last year's team stacked up in Minute% compared to the prior year's team, along with a projection of the top ten players for the upcoming season.

2007-08 2008-09 2009-10
1 Neitzel 79.0 Lucas 79.8 Lucas
2 Morgan 69.2 Walton 69.4 Morgan
3 Suton 66.6 Suton 56.3 Roe
4 Lucas 62.6 Summers 53.4 Summers
5 Walton 58.8 Morgan 51.8 Allen
6 Naymick 53.1 Allen 47.6 Green
7 Gray 32.6 Roe 44.9 Lucious
8 Allen 31.0 Green 27.8 Herzog
9 Summers 27.2 Gray 23.8 Sherman
10  -- --
Lucious 22.6 Nix

Going from 2007-08 to 2008-09, Kalin Lucas stepped up to fill Drew Neitzel's shoes as the 30-minutes-per-game guy, with Korie Lucious becoming the back-up point guard option.  Delvon Roe, with help from Draymond Green, replaced Drew Naymick.  And the #8 and #9 guys from the 2007-08 team, then-freshmen Chris Allen and Durrell Summers, became 20-minutes-per-game players.

In other words: Freshman contributed real minutes right off the bat, and sophomores weren't freshmen any more.

Going into the 2009-10 season, those same two things need to happen.  Roe and Green need to suck up the bulk of the minutes Goran Suton is leaving behind, while Korie Lucious fills in at least some of Travis Walton's minutes.  At the bottom of the PT spectrum, some combination of Tom Herzog (who is, in some sense, a 4th-year freshman), Garrick Sherman, and Derrick Nix will need to fill those crucial 8th and 9th spots in the rotation.

A lack of interior depth has sunk Spartan basketball campaigns before:

  • 2001-02, following the graduation of Andre Hutson and the early entry of Zach Randolph into the NBA draft.
  • 2003-04, following the graduation of Aloysius Anagonye and the early entry of Erazem Lorbek into . . . wherever it is he entered.

In both cases, young post players (Jason Andreas and Adam Wolfe as sophomores in 2001-02, Drew Naymick and Delco Rowley as freshmen in 2003-04) were unable to fill the void down low.

Hopefully, absent injuries, this season won't parallel either of those two situations.  There's only one starter-level post player to replace.  And Herzog and the two freshmen are already showing more signs of being able to contribute than the guys in parentheses in the previous paragraph were in a position to during the early stages of their careers.

After "toughness" and "rebounding," the word "depth" ranks right up there when you're playing word association with the name "Tom Izzo."  The 2009-10 team should have it (note that we haven't even mentioned Austin Thornton and Isaiah Dahlman, two players capable of being the 9th or 10th guys on a Big Ten contender).  If anything, the challenge is to fit all the depth together, balancing out the relatively experienced group of perimeter players with the less experienced cadre of post guys.

While, of course, there really isn't a magic ratio that automatically leads to Big Ten titles and postseason success, I will posit that depth is a prerequisite for success for Izzo-coached teams.  (Other coaches don't necessarily need it.)  Based on what we know right now, that prerequisite has been met.

Finally, it's worth noting that the past two seasons were the first back-to-back sub-3.00-depth-ratio years since the early Izzo-era Final Four run.  The major factors in the peaks/valleys over the 2001-2007 time frame were (1) a rash of early departures (Jason Richardson, Randolph, Marcus Taylor, Lorbek, Brandon Cotton [a VERY early departure], Shannon Brown) and (2) the bunching up of the Hill/Torbert/Anderson/Davis/Ager core playing group, all of whom departed (along with Brown) in a two-year period.  (Historical MSU roster is here.)

It would appear Tom Izzo has been able to adjust his recruiting approach to avoid an excess of early-departure guys.  The second problem is probably unavoidable as a matter of basic mathematics (Roe/Green/Lucious will depart the year after Lucas/Allen/Summers/Herzog do), but depth-ratio valleys separated by periods of 2-3 years would certainly be preferable to annual fluctuations we've seen prior to these past two years.  With a little luck, Izzo can keep the line on the chart below hovering around 3.00 for another decade (or two).

Image001_medium

0 recs  |  Comment 9 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Great stuff.

Obviously, itll be very interesting (and crucial) to see how much impact Nix, Sherman, and Herzog can have.

I feel great about the top 7 guys in terms of experience and talent level. Quite simply, as a fan, I wont say, “oh crap, player X is out there”.

On another note, do you think its reasonable to expect anything from Thornton and Dahlman? Dahlman was quite the player in High School, but never seemed to develop like we hoped.

Having 12 guys on the roster that can contribute would be huge….as injuries/foul trouble/unforseen circumstances will always impact team depth in any given game.

by ChicagoDan on Oct 28, 2009 5:09 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The thing...

….with Dahlman, at least in my impression, has been that he doesn’t quite have the athleticism to be a good defender. If he could get his outside shot going, he could probably play some just by being consistent from 3.

If he contributes just by pushing the starters in practice, then that’s still needed and necessary.

by witless chum on Oct 29, 2009 7:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know all "major" programs can play this game:

Of the six early departures only 2 had real reason to go (J Rich – man among boys, and Randolph – who would have been ineligible) and for only 3 (those two plus Brown) has the decision appeared to pan out.

I think had Taylor stayed one more year and Brown had stayed for his senior year, we might have one or two Big 10 championships during the dark years (ha, ha) from 2001 thru this past year. We might have even beat that Texas team to advance to another Final Four in 03.

Conjecture of course, but nice to dream.

by MSULaxer27 on Oct 28, 2009 6:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

01-02

Actually I would suggest that Adam Wolfe was coming along quite well in 01-02 and had a great future in the program until he ripped his hamstring. His was an horrific injury and crippled us for the rest of the year and ended his playing days at MSU. I think that for a good portion of the season there were only 7 scholarship players available to play, which would explain the depth problem.

by Uncle Omar on Oct 28, 2009 9:07 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Good point

I didn’t remember/look up the details.

Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!

by KJ@theonlycolors on Oct 28, 2009 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That was my freshman year.

Wolfe’s injury really, really hurt that team. I thought we were headed for another Final Four . . . and instead got knocked out in the first round by freaking Nevada. :: shaking head ::

"Do not cheat your team or your teammates. Know your plays. Block. Protect. Add to what we are trying to do."
The Only Colors

by LVS on Oct 28, 2009 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is an amazing table

“Izzo’s Law”: Depth ratio < 3 = Izzo’s Spartans to the Sweet 16

I hope we’ll see more confirming instances.

by njd on Oct 28, 2009 10:26 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

This is nifty...

I love watching Spartan basketball, but don’t watch nor follow it nearly as much as football. This kind of thing is excellent for somebody like me. Thanks for doing it.

by Ken Braun on Oct 28, 2009 10:29 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Care to theorize on why depth is important?

My working theories are:

1) We don’t pull in quite the talent that other top programs do. Don’t get me wrong – we still have loads of talent – but the only guy we have on the roster who was expected to be a sure lock for the NBA was Morgan (and Roe until he injured his knees) so we’re not drawing in UNC level talent. We use depth to maintain superior intensity and make up the talent gap. Without that depth we can’t maintain our intensity edge and performance drops off as guys get tired.

2) The emphisis on defense and rebounding burns a lot of energy and we need reasonably fresh bodies to execute the game plan from beginning to end.

I’d say that we need the bodies to run the way we want to, but given that no-one in the Big 10 ever lets us run, that’s not so much of an issue at least in terms of conference championships.

by TheCrestedHelm on Oct 29, 2009 1:33 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

The SBNation blog covering the Michigan State Spartan football and basketball teams.
Start posting about the Spartans »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
Why playing overseas is a good alternative
Spartan_helmet_small
Breaking Down - Kalin Lucas
Accordion_small
Coaching Tree Article
Bulldog_puppy_small
One informed National opinion on Lucas...
Small
Signing Day
Accordion_small
Efficiency Margins - the halfway home, shamelessly plagiarized edition
Small
Help...
Small
Depth ratio: a bad omen?
Accordion_small
Defensive coaching tendencies
Small
Is Mateen Cleaves a great NCAA Tourney MOP?

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Onlycolors-lg_small KJ@theonlycolors

Sbnation2_small Pete Rossman

Woodward_small LVS

Editors

Square_sun_small Steve Hendershot

Oldspartan_small Rob Visconti

Official Partner of CBS Sports