Are we #5 or #15?
The MSU basketball team, as ranked by various methods on January 28, 2010:
| Poll/Ratings | Rank |
|---|---|
| AP | 5 |
| Coaches | 5 |
| KenPom | 15 |
| Sagarin: ELO_CHESS | 13 |
| Sagarin: PREDICTOR | 16 |
| RPI (StatSheet) | 15 |
The humans like us quite a bit more than the computers (or, rather, the equations calculated by the computers) do.
Why is that?
First, MSU is probably a little overranked in the human polls, even using human-poll standards. Texas should clearly be ahead of us (one fewer loss; beat us head to head). Probably Duke, too (4-1 vs. AP top 25; MSU is 2-2). Essentially, there's a big pile-up after the top four--9 of the 11 teams between #5 and #15 have 3 losses--and the voters are giving MSU the benefit of the doubt because they've lost least recently. Plus MSU started with the advantage of being #2 in the preseason polls.
Second, MSU is 4-1 in games decided by 4 points or fewer. That means they don't look as good in the purely points-based computer rating systems (KenPom and PREDICTOR) as their binary win-loss record would indicate. Only beating Iowa by 7 at home hurt quite a bit in the points-based systems, too. I think we dropped 5-6 spots in the KenPom ratings after that game.
Of course, MSU is also outside the top 10 in the point-margin-ignoring ELO_CHESS system. The merged Sagarin rankings only have MSU as 2-3 vs. top 50 teams, the wins coming against Wisconsin and Gonzaga. The underwhelming performance of the Big Ten in nonconference play isn't helping MSU here.
LVS's links post from last night included a piece by Ken Pomeroy in which Pomeroy examined his own rating system to figure out why it's so down on Kentucky--which was #1 in the polls at that point, prior to losing at South Carolina, but just 9th in the KenPom ratings (#11 now). Here's what he had to say about margin of victory (which is the main driver of his ratings system):
While a team plays to win the game, its chances of winning are much greater when it leads by 20 with five minutes to go than if the game is tied at that point. There is a significant incentive to building a comfortable lead rather than just trying to stay a point ahead of the opposition all game long. You never know when your opponent is going to go all Chandler Parsons on you. For this reason teams capable of building big leads typically build them, and past results indicate that those teams are headed for good things in the future.
He went on to note that Kentucky had won quite a few close games this season (4 by 5 points or fewer, including 2 against sub-KenPom-100 teams). The math says that tendency was bound to catch up to Kentucky--and, lo and behold, it did Tuesday night.
Pomeroy pointed to one team he thinks wasn't necessarily subject to the laws of basketball rating system mathematics: the 2006 Gonzaga team that could coast on defense because of Adam Morrison's unstoppability on offense. Fellow Prospectuser John Gasaway added the 2007 edition of the Florida Gators as another team that--due to its potent mix of NBA-level talent, experience, and cohesiveness--could apparently impose its will and escape the gravitational pull of its Pythagorean calculations.
So does any of this have any bearing on MSU's current disparate positions in the human-intuition-based and math-based rankings? I'd say probably not to a large degree. It certainly doesn't feel like MSU has been "coasting" through games and then flipping a switch to pull away at the end. It feels a lot more like they've struggled with some fairly fundamental areas of play (ball-handing, in particular), found ways to keep games close, and been poised/fortunate enough to pull out several of them late.
There is one X-factor that we may be able to argue is an analytically-significant variable that the computer rating systems don't know about. He wears the #1 jersey for MSU. Kalin Lucas has now established a pretty long track record of coming up big in the final 5 minutes of most close games the Spartans find themselves in. Off the top of my head:
- Home to Wisconsin last season (jumper to break tie; 3-pointer to go up 5).
- At Illinois (twisting layup to break tie and spark run).
- Kansas in the Sweet 16 (and-one vs. Collins to break tie).
- Home to Gonzaga this season (layup to go up 3).
- At Minnesota (pull-up 3-pointer to break tie).
- At Michigan (jumper to take lead).
Maybe I'm forgetting some close games in which Lucas didn't make the play(s) needed to win the game, but I think most neutral observers would agree there aren't many players a college coach would rather have with the ball in his hands and the clock running down in a one-possession game.
At the end of the day, MSU's position in the rankings is going to have a pretty marginal impact on its Big Ten and NCAA fortunes. We're dealing with pretty fine margins here. The difference between the #7 and #15 teams in the Sagarin PREDICTOR ratings is only 1.37 points. The Spartans are winning games right now, which is the main thing we care about as fans. And the numbers say they're in striking distance of being among the nation's top-tier teams, in a year in which it doesn't appear there's a truly elite team on par with, say, last year's North Carolina squad.
Having a proven late-game playmaker doesn't hurt, either.
P.S. Purdue barely escapes at home against Wisconsin. That's a good result for us, I think. We're now up 3 games in the loss column on everyone else in the league. Had Wisconsin won, they'd be looking pretty dangerous. KenPom doesn't have them favored to lose a game from here on out (50/50 at Minnesota). If they'd won tonight and you assume they beat us at their place next week, suddenly they're only a game back. As things are, you still have to view them as a solid threat. They've played remarkably well in Jon Leuer's absence. Once he's back, they will be extremely tough to beat. (It doesn't look like he'll be back for the MSU game, by the way.)
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The only game I can recall Kalin not coming up big at the end
was last year against Penn State. He missed 2 free throws and a short jumper that would have won it. I remember him telling the team/media that it would never happen again. So far he is a man of his words.
It's mostly a function of us not losing recently
We have not been blowing teams out the last couple of games and certainly weren’t coasting in the games at Minnesota and at Michigan. You could make an argument that we built comfortable leads against Illinois and Iowa, only to relax and give them partway (or in the case of the Iowa game, almost all the way) back. In those games we did build a pretty comfortable lead, but then let them go all Chandler Parsons on us to get back in the game. Luckily we had enough of a cusion that it didn’t result in a loss.
Our home game against Minnesota was similar only less so – we built a double digit lead only to have them make a run, but then pulled away again in the end to win by 7. I’m not sure the computers can blame us much for a close home win at Wisconsin as the computers seem to like them pretty well. For that matter the numbers based systems like Minnesota OK too (they’re in the Kenpom top 25). If we can build and maintain a reasonbly big lead against NW at home that would be a good sign.
Speaking of Wisconsin, we’ll be their 3rd game in 5 days and 2nd in 3 when we meet them at the Kohl center, whereas we’ll be on normal rest (with a game on Saturday whereas they have a game on Sunday). If ever there was an opportunity to steal one at their place and confound the numbers-based systems (which don’t factor fatigue into the equation) this is it. Lets hope we can bring our best game on Tuesday.
Agreed
One of the silly things about the “human” polls is the knee-jerk reaction of voters to move a team down whenever they lose. Texas lost on the road to two very good teams, but it happened recently and consecutively. So they must be moved down. We haven’t lost since December in Texas. This resulted in the silly outcome of their being ranked behind us despite one fewer loss and a head-to-head win.
rankings shmankings
Who cares about rankings in January? I just want MSU to be a top three seed in the tournament, so you don’t want to dip below the top ten or so, but honestly, other than hype on ESPN, high rankings in mid season are no advantage. Indeed, I would argue a high ranking motivates opposing teams and their fans in away games, and leads players to relax and stop listening to the coaches.
I'm with you
As long as we have a good enough record to get a fairly high seed I don’t really care too much where we are ranked in the human polls. The computer/numbers based rankings predict future performance so I weight those a little more, although even they are of course not perfect predictors. We weren’t supposed to go to the NCAA final last year, but we did.
by TheCrestedHelm on Jan 29, 2010 1:44 PM CST up reply actions
That's why you have to play the game
Last year, Kansas, Louisville & Connecticut, the computer/program (Seth Greenberg)says loss. Al Davis mantra: Just win, baby!
I'm acutally very excited by the Walton news.
I guess it was pretty much inevitable that he’d be back as an assistant coach, but IMO this is still fantastic news. One of my favorite Spartans, and a guy who can definitely light a fire under his old teammates. I know he’s planning to go back to Europe this fall, but I hope he keeps on coming back during the offseason until he’s in E.L. permanently.
PP-TPW.
The Only Colors
Who cares about computers?
If there ranked 5 by the coaches and writers that is what matters. The computer can not tell how good a team is but coaches can.
maybe
i would argue that there is no way that a coach could coach his team and still be able to keep track of how “good” 25 other teams are from various conferences around the nation. really though, this isn’t football so who cares.
luttez pour les seuls couleurs, vert et blanc
by vert_et_blanc on Jan 29, 2010 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
A computer...
…can’t tell how good a team is but a Sports Information Director can!
by witless chum on Jan 29, 2010 2:59 PM CST up reply actions
I'd rather be the other way around
Computers can’t calculate “intangibles” like the steady improvement one would expect to see from an Izzo team or the fact that if you look up “clutch” in the dictionary you see a picture of Kalin Lucas (although the latter shows up under “record in close games”), but they also don’t worry about silly things like “did you lose yesterday or a month ago”, “are you supposed to be good”, and “what name is on your jersey” – none of which are as relevant to future success as the things the computers do care about.
Did you post a false dichotomy...
…just to provoke comments?
Looks like it worked.
Actually, I’m happy that the truth is probably somewhere in between. The humans are no doubt looking ahead—and how could they not? (They’re only human.) They’re used to seeing MSU exceed seeding expectations in the tournament, so they think MSU is a bit better than the record-to-date indicates. And there is good inductive evidence for that, looking across seasons over the Izzo era.
The computers, meanwhile, don’t recognize that MSU is the elite program in the B10, that everyone else in the conference is looking for a win against MSU. A win over MSU is a signature win, the kind of win that immediately goes to the top of the tournament resume or makes a ‘building in the right direction’ statement for the also-rans. Probably every team is guilty of looking past an opponent sometimes or of coasting in a game—but no team does this against MSU.
I suggest that MSU faces slightly more robust versions of their opponents. I admit in advance that I have no statistical evidence for this—but wouldn’t it be intriguing to see? Perhaps we could devise some way of testing this theory—call it the ‘everyone puts on their game face for MSU’ theory.
I don't know if that theory can be tested
Which is unfortunate, because I do think there is something to it. Trouble is, I don’t see how statistics can distinguish between opposing performances always being relatively good because you have a target on your back and opposing performances always being relatively good because you aren’t.

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