Depth ratio: a bad omen?
[Bumped . . . ruefully. --LVS.]
Long-time readers probably remember KJ's "depth ratio" metric and the curious influence it seems to have on Izzo teams. A quick refresher: depth ratio = (minutes played by #1 and #2-ranked players in minutes) / (minutes played by #8 and #9). This has been a remarkably accurate predictor of tournament success for MSU since Izzo's second year: MSU has made the Sweet 16 every time the depth ratio has been below 3.0, and has never done so when it is above 3.0.
That should not be reassuring news for anyone, because right now that ratio is ... 3.70. Lucas and Allen are #1 and #2 in minutes, accounting for 56.7 minutes/game combined. #8 and #9 are Nix and Sherman, accounting for a combined 15.7 minutes/game.
Before anybody panics, it's undoubtedly a coincidence that there is such a hard line. (There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of correlation within the below-3 group as to how far beyond the Sweet 16 we go, for instance - last year was only a 2.90, and we saw how that went.) Furthermore, it hides the fact that we have six players (Allen, Green, Summers, Morgan, Roe, and Lucious) between 50% and 65% minutes, a minutes distribution that actually looks fairly similar to the Wonk's initial prescription of seven guys between 40% and 70% (Lucas is at 77%). But this does suggest something that shouldn't be a big surprise to anyone: if we can get more quality minutes out of Sherman and Nix (preferably for reasons other than "Morgan and Roe are in massive foul trouble"), our chances of a big run in March are greatly improved.
This is a FanPost, written by a member of the TOC community. It does not represent the official positions of The Only Colors, Inc.--largely because we have no official positions.
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Makes sense
Many people, myself included, have offered the concern that the Nix/Sherman/Herzog situation (and by “situation,” I mean lack of productive minutes) is going to eventually bite the team. The perfect place to have this happen would be the NCAA tournament. What if some tall team starts giving Green and Roe serious problems? Perhaps even more important, what if Green and Roe gets into significant foul trouble and Nix or Sherman is pressed into service in a tight game under a huge spotlight?
Who knows, perhaps this team is an exception, but this could be a problem somewhere down the line.
Achilles Heel
I too worry about the longer term impact of Sherman and Nix are not getting a lot of run. Between every conference game being tight, the paucity of dominating big men in the B11 this year, and some of the usual developmental ceiling issues you see with freshmen, they just are not getting much court-time, even having played Minnesota and their big front line twice. Northwestern was obviously a tough matchup for either of them, given their system and the ability of their big men to shoot and cut. While it is always the case, what match-ups we get in the tourney may shape our fate more than usual this year.
by RobbingGormanThomas on Feb 1, 2010 7:38 AM CST reply actions
green comparison?
Had Green played more minutes last year at this point, than, say, Nix? I’m not sure the low number of minutes is the issue. I’d say Nix (Sherman to a lesser extent) has been getting valuable minutes, and seems to be picking things up pretty well. His defense is really pretty solid, for example - just compare him to Marquise Grey on switches! Plus, he’s not overwhelmed physically, and he does not commit stupid fouls. For some reason, nothing goes in for him anymore, but otherwise, he’s really doing fine on the basis of 5-8 minutes a game. If matchup issues forces Izzo to play him 12-15 minutes I can’t see that this would be a major worry. It would be nice if he suddenly woke up the way Green did last March - still possible! — but I think he is doing fine.
Sherman on the other hand, seems to have hit that proverbial wall, and seems overmatched physically in Big Ten Play. I think he has a huge upside, but it is a year away.
My other comment would be that against the big teams like Gonzaga, UNC and Texas, MSU did just fine in the paint. We were undone by poor shooting and turn overs.
Green was becoming a double-digit minutes guy at this point last year. We’ll see if that happens with Nix, but the signs don’t seem to be pointing in that direction.
Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!
by KJ@theonlycolors on Feb 1, 2010 8:08 AM CST up reply actions
Almost start to wonder
Would it have been better to redshirt one of the freshman and give Herzog 3-5 minutes once in a while?
Was it essential to play Nix and Sherman both this year? Not clear.
You can always redshirt one of them next year with Payne coming in
Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!
by KJ@theonlycolors on Feb 1, 2010 9:50 AM CST up reply actions
I suppose
Don’t see mid-career redshirts very often. David Thomas? Not outrageous idea by any means but I’m not sure you get away with redshirting two guys and many are penciling in one for Gauna. Now, if Herzog returns, I can see it. You’d have Green, Roe, Nix, Hezog, and Payne. That seems viable provided people are healthy.
interesting numbers!
Presumably, Green’s numbers went up when Morgan went down with his various ailments, and Grey could not pick up his play. Green flowered, and I am certainly not arguing that we will see the same from Nix. However, Izzo has the greater luxury this year of not rushing Nix, because the core group has been so solid.
I guess I'm not too concerned about it despite the stats
None of those other teams got to 9-0 in Big Ten play, so we’re in uncharted territory there as well. Generally speaking, we’ve done worst in the tournament when we’ve had the poorest Big 10 seasons. Barring a major fade down the stretch it’s looking like we’ll finish well up in the Conference standings this year.
2005 seemed like an underachieving year because we finished 3 games out of first, but we only lost 3 Big 10 games. It just so happened that Illinois went undefeated. In a “normal” we would have won at least a share of the conference title at 13-3, but that team had the misfortune of being primed during the same year as one of the best teams in Big 10 history.
I agree
There is more to depth than just playing the 8 and 9 guys a lot – in fact, I wonder if the bigger effect is the reduced minutes for the first two guys (and the fact that the 8 and 9 guys get more time is a side effect). If that’s the case, we’re in great shape (56 minutes combined for the top two guys is not much more than we had in ‘04-05, and lower than pretty much every other year). Two 50% minute guys off the bench and two 20%ers, functionally, doesn’t seem a whole lot different than 45-40-30-25 in terms of depth.
I wonder if just plain bench minutes (defined as minutes by the 6th+ players in total minutes, no matter who the nominal starters are) might be a better measure, or at least a useful supplementary measure. Everybody might have seven players who can contribute, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that getting 20 min each from the 6/7 men isn’t significantly better (from a depth standpoint) than getting 12-15 min each.
I should add
That, while I expect a few losses in Big 10 play, the upcoming half of the schedule will tell the tale. If we lose every game we play against Purdue and OSU, plus lose in Madison and Champaign-Urbana, I don’t like our chances for a long tournament run much. If we split with Purdue and win at Illinois, plus handle OSU at home, I think that will be a good sign.
The next few games
I also believe the results in the next few games may have a significant impact in determining what sort of run we have in the tournament. If we position ourselves to get a two or three seed, obviously our chances of making it into the Sweet 16 are much stronger than if we are a four or five seed. No doubt, somewhere along the way, we will need quality minutes from one of the big guys, but continuing our success on the road in the Big Ten and holding serve at home seems to me a bigger key to a tourney run than the minutes played ratio. Now, perhaps the amount of minutes played will have an effect on performance down the stretch. It is certainly something to watch.
Two questions about this stat
Does this correlation hold true for other teams? I assume it does, but this is the first time I’ve ever seen it, so I’m wondering if it has anything to do with the way Izzo coaches/total system, etc.
Is the #1/2 to #8/9 ratio an arbitrary split, or is there a particularly obvious reason for only comparing those? Obviously, 8 & 9 is about as far as most teams are going to go for any appreciable amount of time, but is there a particular reason for those over 9 & 10, or 7&8?
White Sox fan; Jeppson's Malort man
1) No, it doesn’t. It’s unique to Izzo teams. Bo Ryan, for example, only needs 6-7 guys because Wisconsin plays more deliberately. And some teams go 9-10 deep simply because they’re starters aren’t all that great.
2) The idea is that almost every college team has 7 guys that play decent minutes (5 starters plus one guard and one big man off the bench), so looking at the 8 and 9 spots tell you if there’s legitimate depth.
Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!
by KJ@theonlycolors on Feb 1, 2010 9:57 AM CST up reply actions
Thanks
White Sox fan; Jeppson's Malort man
by KarkoviceIsHawt on Feb 1, 2010 11:53 AM CST up reply actions
Last year's team was incredibly deep
It featured 10 guys who played at least 22% of the available minutes. The roles of Draymond Green (27.8%), Marquise Gray (23.8%) and Korie Lucious (22.6%) are being played by Derrick Nix(20.9%), Garrick Sherman(19.5%) and Austin Thornton(12.6%) respectively on this year’s team (which also features Tom Herzog as Idong Ibok). In fact, the top two guys last year (Lucas and Walton) played significantly more than the top two guys this year (Lucas and Green), but this was more than offset by the faith Izzo had in guys 8-10. So the real issue seems to be, was the extra rest that the front line guys (i.e., the rebounders) got last year an essential component of our deep run in the tournament? Because our offense is so strongly driven by rebounding, on both ends, I have to be a little worried. One wrinkle, however, is that the emergence of Summers as a rebounder on this year’s team distributes the primary rebounding burden over four of the top seven guys (Green, Roe, Morgan and Summers) where last year’s team relied mainly on Suton, Morgan and Roe for boards, spelled, of course by the excellent bench.
At least we don't have to worry about Lucas hitting a wall
He didn’t hit one last year playing more minutes. Our back court should be fresher going into postseason play because no one back there is playing as many minutes as Lucas and Walton did. Although we have less depth up front this year it doesn’t seem like any of those guys are playing outlandish minutes. They’re all playing fewer minutes than Morgan and Suton did two years ago. If Green’s knee starts really giving him trouble then we may have a serious problem though.
One thing I forgot
Was that Suton and Morgan were out (or effectively out) for stretches last year, so Izzo was forced to distribute those minutes. That would skew the numbers somewhat.
I think that was largely offset by the fact that Green’s numbers were artificially low for the #8 guy since he was basically swapped in for Gray halfway through the season.
Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!
by KJ@theonlycolors on Feb 1, 2010 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
But since Gray is the #9 guy
Doesn’t that then make his numbers artificially high, so that #8 + #9 would be constant?
But Lucious was very close to being #9
So boosting either Green/Gray at #8 (and dropping the other one) would lower the ratio.
BTW, I can’t tell you how happy it makes me to even have a handful of people taking a statistic I made up seriously.
Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!
by KJ@theonlycolors on Feb 1, 2010 2:26 PM CST up reply actions
Well don't get too big a head
we’re using it to avoid doing actual work.
by TheCrestedHelm on Feb 1, 2010 3:23 PM CST up reply actions
Just remember the little people
When some NBA squad is paying your consulting firm seven digits annually to come up with this stuff.
Nix
I can’t help but feel he will get more playing time as soon as his free throws start falling more consistently in games. Since he usually doesn’t go for dunks, opponents can just deploy the “Hack-a-Shaq” strategy when he’s in.
Defensively, he’s much better than Sherman or Herzog so I think as soon as he can show he can be a scorer he’ll get more time.
Light a man a fire, he'll stay warm for a day.
Light a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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