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Around SBN: Where Do The Lakers Go From Here?

Four dozen and counting

Here's your list:

  1. Jason Klein
  2. Antonio Smith
  3. Mateen Cleaves
  4. A.J. Granger
  5. Morris Peterson
  6. David Thomas
  7. Charlie Bell
  8. Andre Hutson
  9. Aloysius Anoganye
  10. Adam Ballinger
  11. Jason Andreas
  12. Adam Wolfe
  13. Alan Anderson
  14. Chris Hill
  15. Kelvin Torbert
  16. Maurice Ager
  17. Paul Davis
  18. Drew Naymick
  19. Delco Rowley
  20. Drew Neizel
  21. Marquise Gray
  22. Idong Ibok
  23. Goran Suton
  24. Travis Walton
  25. Isaiah Dahlman
  26. Tom Herzog
  27. Raymar Morgan
  28. Chris Allen
  29. Kalin Lucas
  30. Durrell Summers
  31. Draymond Green
  32. Korie Lucious
  33. Delvon Roe
  34. Derrick Nix
  35. Garrick Sherman

That's the list of players to whom the statement "Every four-year scholarship player who's come into the Michigan State program under Tom Izzo has been to at least one Final Four" applies.  Nearly three dozen guys.  (Technical note: The assumption is that the guys listed from 28-35 will all stay four years.)

Star-divide

I saw the statement phrased slightly differently today by our friend Mr. Brennan (emphasis added):

Oh, and while we're here, it's worth noting that this Final Four extends Izzo's 13-year streak of never having coached a single upperclassman that didn't enjoy a Final Four appearance at least once during his time at Michigan State. And you wonder why Izzo recruits so well.

That statement also checks out.  You can add the names of two players who played three years for Izzo to the list:

  1. Brandon Smith
  2. Shannon Brown

Plus we've skipped at least five players who came into the program as walk-ons, stayed for at least three years, made substantive contributions on the court during their careers, and advanced to Final Fours:

  1. Mat Ishbia
  2. Tim Bograkos
  3. Matt Trannon
  4. Austin Thornton
  5. Mike Kebler

But that's not enough.  There have been five Spartans who didn't play even three years under Izzo's tutelage, but still got a Final Four ring:

  1. Doug Davis
  2. Mike Chappell
  3. Jason Richardson
  4. Zach Randolph
  5. Marcus Taylor

Last, but not least, one player was technically a Jud Heathcote recruit but hung around long enough to see the first Izzo Final Four:

  1. Thomas Kelley

Count 'em: 48 Michigan State basketball players who have gone to a Final Four during the Tom Izzo era (hah, hah, hah, hah, hah, hah hah).

Here is--as best I can tell (reference document is here)--the list of scholarship players who came in under Izzo, played at least one full season, and never went to a Final Four: DaJuan Wiley, Ken Miller, Rashi Johnson, Erazem Lorbek, Maurice Joseph.  Slim pickin's.

This year's NCAA Tournament heroics only expanded the list of Izzo Final Four guys by two (Nix and Sherman), but it greatly expands a subset of the list: Players who have reached at least two Final Fours under Izzo.  There are 22 of those players now: Cleaves, Ishbia, (Brandon) Smith, Bell, Peterson, Richardson, Thomas, Hutson, Granger, Ballinger, Anoganye, Lucas, Lucious, Kebler, Allen, Summers, Morgan, Dahlman, Thornton, Green, Herzog, Roe.  (The number's a little fuzzy: I'm not counting Andreas and Wolfe, since they were redshirts in 2000, but I am counting Kebler and Thornton since they were technically active players last year.)

If that's not building an elite program, I don't know what is.  A kid who is 17 right now and thinking about which college basketball program he'd like to play for has been watching MSU advance to Final Fours since he was 6.  And there are four dozen guys out there telling people about cutting down the nets after a regional final under Tom Izzo.  That's a fairly potent form of ambassadorship.

That's what makes this round of "Is someone going to steal Izzo?" seem fairly ludicrous.  There may be college basketball programs out there with pedigrees that go back further (though the list is short), and there may be schools out there with more money to throw around.  But there's no school that could give Tom Izzo a better base of support for him to achieve the kind of success he strives for--the kind that revolves around lists of four-year players, rather than one-and-done players.

For any high school recruit out there thinking to himself, "Which program gives me the best chance to play on the nation's biggest stage?", the answer has become pretty clear.

For those of us who picked our college destination based on a longer list of considerations (and, in this blogger's case, picked it a full six years before the first Tom Izzo trip to the Final Four), it's been one heckuva ride--and a ride that shows no signs of slowing down any time soon.

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Great to see all those names again...

including forgotten guys like TK, Klein, and Tone, the first (well, sort of the first) Flintstone.

Enough to make me wish for a Polonowski and Mull reference.

by rook34 on Mar 29, 2010 8:44 PM CDT reply actions  

Two Final Fours

If you count guys who made one of two as a redshirt, couldn’t you also add Suton, Gray, and Ibok on top of Andreas and Wolfe? 2005, right?

by intrpdtrvlr on Mar 29, 2010 8:54 PM CDT reply actions  

Fantastic

90.5% Of All Izzo players make the FF.

"There are no next times when you're competing for big things." - Tom Izzo
Go Spartans

by msufan23 on Mar 29, 2010 10:25 PM CDT reply actions  

How about...

Steve Cherry, the junior on the 2000 Championship team?

by Gran-the-Man on Mar 30, 2010 12:19 AM CDT reply actions  

Judgment call

I don’t remember Cherry ever getting any meaningful minutes. I was probably on the generous side with Ishbia. His meaningful minutes came in 2002, not one of the Final Four years, and were much more limited than I had been thinking (5 minutes against Iowa due, basically—I forget exactly why).

Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!

by KJ@theonlycolors on Mar 30, 2010 7:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ishbia and Cherry were 1A and 1B

Although, being there from 1997-2000 I remember more “Put in Cherry” chants than “Put in Ishbia”…how about Lorenzo Guess?

by MSULaxer27 on Mar 30, 2010 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think Guess ever played any really meaningful minutes

I will now state definitively that my own guidelines should have precluded Ishbia from being included on the list. But that would screw up the headline.

If someone wants to do a FanPost with a list of all the walk-ons who have gone to a FF, it will have auto-bump status.

Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!

by KJ@theonlycolors on Mar 30, 2010 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks. I remeber him leaving, just didn't realize it was during the season.

Thought he completed one and transferred. Curious, is Ziegler in the Cotton mold? Will he need to be the “man” wherever he ends up?

by MSULaxer27 on Mar 30, 2010 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I very seriously doubt it

I’d expect a coach’s kid to have a lot more focus than that.

My guess is Zeigler is just torn between 3 very good choices right now: playing for his father, playing for a proven winner where he’d need to wait his turn for a year, or being “the man” right away in a program likely to gradually move toward conference/national contention over the course of his 4 years.

Cotton transferred after playing in 3 games. There must have been an injury of some sort involved?

Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!

by KJ@theonlycolors on Mar 30, 2010 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

My memory is a bit foggy

But yeah, Cotton had some kind of lower extremity injury (ankle?) right at the beginning. It cost him practice time at the start of the year. Being a freshman with minimal experience with the team, he wasn’t seeing a lot of minutes. That was a major part of it. Sounds like he thought it should be handed right to him.

You’re right about Zeigler and the multiple good choices. However, I don’t think you have to wear dark green glasses to scratch your head at someone choosing UM over MSU at this point. Next year is really in doubt for them and the idea that they’re headed towards some kind of rise is not self-evident. If TZ chooses UM over MSU, I have to think personality and chemistry with the staff will be as much a part of it as anything. Izzo-style may not be for everyone.

by intrpdtrvlr on Mar 30, 2010 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

You could say the same about Will Gholston...

…chosing MSU over the world in 2009 after how the follow up super-crappy season off a prior good season went. Chosing the program for the kids has more to do than who’s the winner. Bielein is a famed shot doctor, and in his system you shoot a ton of 3s. Thinking about where he might fit in the pros, Ziegler may find this more beneficial for his development.

by DP99 on Mar 30, 2010 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, I have to disagree

Choosing MSU over national powers like Alabama, USC, etc. is different than comparing two in-state programs of drastically different success and choosing the major underdog. I don’t believe the two situations are equivalent to that extent. The geography issue makes it a different game.

As another aside, I have to imagine Beilein’s rep as a “shot doctor” has taken a major hit this season. He’s got a lotta sick kids.

by intrpdtrvlr on Mar 30, 2010 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Again...

not to get into a hissy here, but
“comparing two in-state programs of drastically different success and choosing the major underdog”
…couldn’t you say that about Gholston chosing MSU over UM in football, judging by the balance of the last 15 years?

Look, we agree that the Wilson’s, Ziegler’s, and everybody else should just go with Izzo. It’s just not as head-scratching for me when those guys in their particular situations don’t think so. Ok, maybe Wilson really screwed up his decision, but that’s more on the decision he ended up with and not the decision of going with someone other than Izzo.

by DP99 on Mar 31, 2010 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

No hissy, it's cool

It’s a totally reasonable debate. And again, the contrast I’d make is that UM never appeared to be a true frontrunner for Gholston from my view. That was never a team anyone seemed concerned about losing him to, really. USC? Sure. OSU? Perhaps.
I would also offer that the football gap is significantly narrower than the basketball one in part because UM’s success/dominance in FB (since the ‘97 NT) has not been up to MSU’s caliber in BB.
I think the better question to your point is “Why didn’t he choose OSU?”

We’re sort of splitting hairs here, I agree, but to clarify, I’m not scratching my head that everyone such as Wilson or Dexter Strickland or Anthony Roberson doesn’t pick Izzo. However, in a UM-MSU head-to-head recruitment battle for BBall in 2010? Picking UM would at least make me go “hmmm.” As I said, my explanation would be that Zeigler must have a better relationship with the UM staff or really want to be more of a featured player early.

by intrpdtrvlr on Mar 31, 2010 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

I believe he was hurt, then close family member died...

so he didn’t play much while there, then wanted to be back in Detroit with family. Or such is my remembering of newspaper reading…

by DP99 on Mar 30, 2010 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Cherry

If memory serves, it was Cherry who scored the bucket in the scUM beatdown on 2000’s Senior night that gave Cleaves some kind of assist record. I think it was the Big 10 single season mark but I’m not sure. Either way, that constitutes my sole memory of Cherry.

by TahoeSparty on Mar 30, 2010 9:19 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

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