Just when you thought it was safe to stop paying attention to MSU basketball recruiting . . .
by KJ@theonlycolors on Aug 13, 2010 1:51 PM CDT
in Michigan State Spartans Basketball
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Print. . . this happens:
"I actually had an opportunity to talk to Coach Izzo and we had a very good conversation," said Harris Sr. "I can say this, based on our conversation it was similar to conversations we had in the past about Gary, and Michigan State being a possible excellent choice for him with his college. I don’t think that anything has changed."
"Harris Sr." is Gary Harris, Sr., the father of 2012 basketball recruit Gary Harris. While the 2012-13 Michigan State basketball roster is now completely full on paper, Tom Izzo is apparently leaving the door open to Harris becoming a Spartan. From a logistical standpoint, it's very hard to see how that's going to happen. One of the 13 players currently slated to be on basketball scholarship in the fall of 2012 would have to forego that position. Possibilities:
- One of the current 2011 or 2012 MSU recruiting commits decides to decommit (and/or has his verbal offer pulled). This would be a pretty unusual move for an Izzo-era recruit and/or Izzo. As Josh has noted, it would also be a potential PR nightmare for a program that has prided itself on creating a stable, family-oriented atmosphere.
- Somebody goes pro early. Unless Harris is willing to wait all the way until April 2012, that would have to be Adreian Payne going pro after just one year (so that Harris would only have to wait until April 2011). Possible, but I think unlikely. If Payne had intentions of being a one-and-done college player, I really don't think he would have chosen to come play for Tom Izzo, a guy with a reputation for developing players over 3-4 years, rather than featuring talented stars right off the bat.
- Somebody transfers. Again, possible, but hard to foresee. Assuming it's not one of the 2011 recruits (after one season), it would have to be someone who's going to be a freshman or a sophomore this upcoming season: Nix, Sherman, Appling, Gauna, Payne. No reason to think any of those players aren't going to have productive careers at MSU.
Another potential scenario is for Harris or one of the players currently slated for a scholarship to come in on a non-basketball scholarship. Matt Costello reportedly has a 3.8 GPA (HT: Donaldo). Gary Harris plays football. I have no idea how stringently the NCAA polices the use of academic or football scholarships for athletes clearly coming into a university primarily to play basketball.
Longtime readers know that recruiting talk in general creeps me out, and talking about which players officially slated to be Spartans may not end up being Spartans really creeps me out, so I'm going to leave it there. Needless to say, stay tuned for future developments. From everything I've read, Harris is certainly a player who would be a great asset to the program, potentially helping with the point guard situation after Kalin Lucas and Korie Lucious are gone. How that could become a reality remains to be seen. As with so many other things, in Izzo we trust.
Update: One more thing. Even if you can squeeze Harris on to the roster, there's also the matter of how you find enough playing time for 9 perimeter players during the 2012-13 season (8 if Kaminski develops into a legitimate power forward). Again, stay tuned.
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I think you hit the Nail on the head
Those are exactly the points and reasons as to why I didn’t think Harris would be a Spartan.
I hope he does, because he’s supposed to be Great! But not sure how it could possibly work out.
I imagine it’s just Izzo keeping his options open.
Travis Trice
In a less creepy vein, according the the Dayton Daily News, Travis Trice also sports a 3.8 GPA.
I think your afterthought is as important as anything else, KJ
Even though every elite player should believe he can beat out anyone, how attractive is the wing situation at MSU to a new addition right now?
Exactly
My keenest thoughts on a topic generally occur to me after I’ve already published the post.
Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!
by KJ@theonlycolors on Aug 13, 2010 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Also, merely speculating
If Gary Harris commits tomorrow and everything seems fine, my guess would be that someone has agreed to potentially come in as a academic scholarship for at least one year. That doesn’t strike me as likely but I prefer it as an explanation to an early transfer/decommit.
Need to look into the NCAA rules on that
Have to believe there’s some safeguards there.
Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!
by KJ@theonlycolors on Aug 13, 2010 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Academic Scholarship
When I posed the question earlier today, I didn’t have any idea that it would become relevant so soon. I couldn’t find anything specific from the NCAA regarding eligibility requirements for academic scholarships to athletes, but I imagine each institution sets certain standards. My instincts say that if an athlete meets the same academic standards as any other incoming student, he would legitimatley be eligible for an academic scholarship.
Well, exactly what happened with Thornton?
The one thing I believe (because everyone says it as a consensus) is that players cannot go from athletic to academic scholarship. However, I know the reverse must be allowable in some circumstances because that’s what happened with Austin Thornton. The key catch is that I believe there’s a part about “recruited” players versus walk-ons that muddies the waters. If anyone wants to do the heavy lifting and get the hard facts, props.
Also, I say “potentially” because you could have 14 slated with the idea that a scholarship may open up before the 2012 class actually enrolls.
My last though for the moment: that quote from Harris, Sr. is pretty striking. Looks like they’ve addressed the issue and received word from Izzo that nothing has changed. The “I can say this” catches me too; sounds like he’s aware that this might be an issue after Costello’s commitment. Perhaps he knows more than we do as well.
How exactly did that work?
Did he count against both the football and basketball limits, or did we get to pick which one (which would obviously be football)? That I can see the NCAA letting you do, as he obviously was a participant in football (I imagine you’d have some issues if you tried to give a 375-pound DL a swimming-and-diving scholarship). But my suspicion is they’re really edgy the instant you give a non-athletic scholarship to a player, as there are way too many ways that could be used to circumvent the cap.
He was football
And a major contributor to both, which would be the only foreseeable issue I can think of. Harris will clearly be a basketball player before a football player. However, Im fairly sure the NCAA cant really do anything about which scholarships are used. The schools are awarded a certain amount of scholarships to use at their discretion, MSU could simply say they felt Harris was deserving of a football scholarship, and was interested in basketball as well and the NCAA couldnt really do anything about that.
And I can almost guarentee that the NCAA doesnt have any jurisdiction over academic scholarships, seeing as the school gives them to who the school feels is a deserving student, athletics supposedly have nothing to do with it.
Ooonst ooonst muthafucka!
1) If he’s on the basketball team but not on the football team (not merely a benchwarmer on the football team, but not a practicing participant), you can bet the NCAA will say that’s something fishy.
2) The NCAA can’t say you can’t give somebody an academic scholarship, but I’m 99% sure they can rule that “academic” scholarships count against the cap unless the player meets certain standards. Otherwise SEC schools wouldn’t have to cut people due to oversigning, they’d just hand out a dozen or so “academic” scholarships and hey, problem solved.
Hey Dan,
I posted the link to the manual and an excerpt below. The part about counting for football is pretty clear but, again, what prevents abuse?
I know you can start on some sort of academic award then go to athletic scholarship – that’s what Thornton did – but I don’t know the absolute details. Pretty sure you can’t go back to an academic one afterward.
I doubt
hed be a bench warmer. Hed probably end up a second string receiver, which would still qualify and would make him available.
And thats the general idea of an academic scholarship, you have to continue to earn it, with good grades. If he qualified, like Costello may, then it wont count against the cap. Only if its a blatantly obvious disregard, like say an academic scholarship for a 3.0 instead of a 3.7 would they look in I think.
Ooonst ooonst muthafucka!
And
the reason the SEC couldnt just hand out those dozen academics is because the universities have predetermined qualificatopns. Very unlikely that a dozen SEC football players qualify lol.
Ooonst ooonst muthafucka!
Not the best scenario
If Harris were to garner a football scholarship, it would be very unlikely that he would be available until after football season. If a bowl game is in the picture, that is a lot of lost practice and game time,most likely limiting his effectiveness as a freshman.
NCAA regulations
Not knowing the answer to this bothers me so much that I’ve been looking through the NCAA manual. It’s pretty dense and confusing but I believe I understand this:
15.5.9 Multi-Sport Participants.
15.5.9.1 Football. [FBS/FCS] In football, a counter who was recruited and/or offered financial aid to
participate in football and who participates (practices or competes) in football and one or more sports (including
basketball) shall be counted in football. A counter who was not recruited and/or offered financial aid to
participate in football and who competes in football and one or more sports (including basketball) shall be
counted in football. (Revised: 1/10/95 effective 8/1/95, 1/9/96 effective 8/1/96)
Which I understand to mean that even if you’re technically considered a “basketball recruited” player yet you play football, you’re counted towards the football scholarships. I don’t know if this means much for Harris. Also, I wonder how much football you have to play to count and not be merely jobbing the system.
This has really sparked my interest in being a compliance officer
I make note of a wording difference – for one recruited for football, he can “practice or compete in football,” but if recruited for another sport, he “competes” in football. That distinction seems to require a greater degree of commitment.
Tthe time to contemplate this is probably indicative of a need to spice up my day, so with that goal in mind, I’ll depart.
This would be a great question to put to the bylaws blog
Oh wait…some d-bag from LSU ruined it for all of us.
http://www.everydayshouldbesaturday.com/2010/7/26/1588582/a-quick-word-on-bylaw-blog-outing
Could Izzo Be Oversigning?
The link to the story about how Dawson signing with MSU would impact Purdue’s recruiting mentioned that Painter signed a kid and sent him off to prep school for a year until a scholarship opened up.
Is it possible that Izzo has told a kid or two that depending on how the roster shakes out he might ask them to do the same?
Painter signed him (Hale) with full disclosure that he would have to go the prep route if there wasn’t a transfer or Hummel, Johnson, or Moore leaving early. Maybe Izzo could do the same here but Hale wasn’t this high of a recruit.
by SpartanBoiler on Aug 13, 2010 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah
but Valentine isnt. I could see him going to prep school for a year, especially since his game is very similar to Kearney’s.
Ooonst ooonst muthafucka!
Valentine...
His game is more advanced than Kearney’s. If anyone needs a year or prep school, it’s probably Kearney.
by LickSplickidy on Aug 16, 2010 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Problem with Kearney is
that it doesn’t do anything to free up a 2012 spot, but your point is taken.
And
Valentine doesnt have Kearneys star potential. Kearney is feasibly an NBA talent. Valentine? Probably not, although I hope he suprises me.
Ooonst ooonst muthafucka!
Oversigning does happen
In fact, the captain at Oklahoma State voluntarily gave up his ride and agreed to play as a walk-on this year.
I like that even though it "appears" that we have a full boat...
Elite level prospects are considering come here and making it work out.
No kidding..
This situation would have been unthinkable prior to Izzo… or even 5 years ago. I think Izzo’s pledge to be a lifer has really solidified him as the Gold Standard of college coaches and provided the stability in a recruit’s eyes about what’s going to happen in the future. As high school Juniors – they need to feel confident about what will transpire at a University 6-7 years in advance, since they will likely be finishing up their college careers by then. Well, if you know that Izzo will be the coach, you can feel pretty reassured that, at the very least, good things are in store.
4 or 5 + NC = Roster Spot
IMHO, we are recruiting more 4’s and 5’s and even though it is Izzo’s style to keep guys 4 years, he knows that they all won’t and that the hype around a player right after he’s part of a NC win often convinces someone to go pro who might not otherwise have gone.
Randolph was ready,
physically, to go pro after 1 season – he’s been a heck of a player throughout his pro career.
Now, mentally & emotionally, he surely wasn’t ready, and frankly, may still not be . . .
J-Rich is another guy who was surrounded by the hype, was a role player as a frosh on the title team, team leader as a soph on the Final 4 team, but clearly, he was ready, too, to leave early.
I think the shining example of someone listening to the hype & going pro too soon from our program is of course Marcus Taylor – came in a 4 or 5 star top recruit, local kid, was being called the next Magic, had a good soph year, finished it very strong (except the tourney game in which his performance could be compared to vomiting on the floor), then out of leftfield, he was with an agent, and out of EL. And we all know how that one worked out.
A recent example in our state would be Manny Harris leaving U-M after this season, though obviously he wasn’t riding the hype of a great team performance. But I also believe a big reason for Manny leaving is that he didn’t want to be on another mediocre U-M squad, and realized that short of being B10 POY, his stock would only go down his senior season.
The great thing is, in 15 seasons of Izzo at the helm in EL, bringing in highly touted recruits most of the time, that there really is only ONE guy that anyone can point to as having gone pro too soon when he wasn’t ready (Lorbek doesn’t count, he was from half a world away & wanted to stay in his home country if not playing pro in the US). This once again is a statement to not only the type of coach Izzo is, but the type of program he runs, and the way he develops his players into men.
Im actually wondering
Even without Harris how is playing time going to be allotted. Someone, possibly Valentine seeing how hes a wing, is going to need to be redshirted that year. And if we DO get Harris somehow I think Valentine DEFINITELY gets the redshirt since I dont see a recruit like Harris redshirting anywhere
Ooonst ooonst muthafucka!
Valentine
I think everyone is selling Valentine short. His films later in the season are impressive. Just because Rivals and Scout haven’t jumped on the bandwagon yet does not mean he isn’t a good player. Mo Ager was a 3 star and Marquise Gray was a 5 Star ranked ahead of Al Horford. Their rankings mean very little. Izzo has a better eye for talent than those services. He has swung and missed on 3 or 4 guys in 15 years, Scout and Rivals miss on guys every year in their 5 Star Blue Chip rankings.
DV
Yeah I agree, the passes he makes on this highlight film, compliments of our buddies over at UMhoops, are sick. http://www.umhoops.com/2010/08/09/denzel-valentine-to-michigan-state/
I’m just envisioning him now penetrating, drawing 2 or even 3 defenders, then dropping one of those beautiful, no look dimes down to Payne or Costello down low for the easy finish, or kicking it back out to Kaminski or Bord on the wing to drain a triple.
It seems like right now he’s not the best athlete on the floor, not even his team, but he is a 15 – 16 y/o HS sophomore, so he certainly can get a lot more athletic as he gets a little older. He just looks like he’s by far the smartest guy on the floor, like he sees things 2 – 3 steps ahead of everybody else. On some of these drives, it’s like he’s playing games with the D before dishing the rock.
I think he’s going to be really, really fun to watch, and could be a PERFECT complement to the crazy skilled athletes we have coming in like Dwaun & Dawson . I think, like That Guy Green, that DV will be far more visible, nationally, by the time his senior season in HS is wrapping up.
DV's athleticism
He’s had some knee problems. In fact, Izzo candidly told him that concerns about his condition and recovery were part of what slowed MSU’s recruitment of him. However, word is that he’s fine now and some people are hoping (realistically) that a recovered Denzel will possess more athleticism than he’s displayed thus far.
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