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Positional Revisionism and MSU Basketball

Bumped. Happy Monday everyone! - Pete

 

Drew Cannon recently published an interesting article on the Basketball Prospectus site that has provoked some discussion about positions on the basketball court and the limitations of traditional thinking. Eamonn Brennan looked at some of the implications of Cannon's article and other responses have come from Rob Mahoney and Tom Ziller. And, over at UM Hoops, Dylan has tweaked Cannon's system a bit and used it as a lens through which to view the Michigan lineup and its possible combinations for the upcoming season. None of this is brand new, of course: NBA types have been looking at this kind of thing for several years now. (See this piece by Tim McSweeney from 2006, for example.) But not a lot has been done to move this discussion to the college game to see what it might illuminate. Cannon and Brennan have both pointed out how an open-minded consideration of skills that don't fit the traditional positional mold could give a coach an edge in finding talent, especially at the mid-major level, if such "tweeners" have slipped through the cracks. My goal is somewhat more limited. I'm going to try to refine things a little further with some tweaks of my own and then use the result to take a look at the Michigan State team and its possible areas of concern, as well as what floor combinations we might expect or want to see for the Spartans.*

*My original intent was to look at roles on some of the future MSU teams, based on the recruits Izzo has brought in and questions about who's going to play where. I ended up leaving all of that out, but may do a second post in the future. It would also be intriguing to do team vs. team matchups in the Big Ten.

Star-divide

Cannon's main point is pretty simple: "Stop slotting players into traditional positions, already." In describing his system Cannon points out that "in reality, players have an offensive responsibility and a defensive responsibility, not just one position". He details the specific offensive and defensive responsibilities each team requires and how they can be filled by players with differing combinations of height/strength and speed/athleticism. The eight "positions" are the five defensive and three offensive roles he identifies. The defensive roles correspond to the familiar 1-5 slots that represent typical combinations of skill, size and speed that a team must be able to guard against. The three distinct offensive roles he identifies are the Rebounder, the Scorer and the Creator/Handler. His main point is that offensive and defensive responsibilities can be separated and a guy who can, say, defend the 1 but is primarily a scorer rather than a ball-handler is OK, as long as all the roles are filled on the team. Ziller observes, however, that

The problem with the way this new development is framed is that it still relies on demonstrably imprecise labels. If Rodrigue Beaubois is a "D1" -- meaning he guards point guards despite often playing shooting guard -- then you're assuming there are "1s" for him to guard, which is just the type of assumption the Positional Revolution aims to destroy.

He continues, "A more useful classification might be something like "DPick-and-RollA+" or "DPostC-"." Mahoney responds, with some justification, I think, that although Ziller has a point, introducing evaluation into what is supposed to be description risks making it too subjective and complex. Whatever their drawbacks, the D1-D5 labels at least have the value of encapsulating a lot of information in a simple and easily recognizable description. Mahoney proposes making a less extreme modification to Cannon's original diagram and representing the defensive positions as follows, where the 1-5 positions represent typical combinations of size and speed. (LeBron James-like freaks need not apply: much of their value lies in their atypical combination of size with speed.)

 

So what we have are five overlapping but distinct regions that represent normal combinations of size and speed. This has the virtue of simplicity as well as flexibility. Most guys can fill at most two defensive roles. The exceptions are your true defensive wizards - remember Travis Walton being switched from 6'2" A.J. Price onto 6'9" Stanley Robinson in the 2009 Final Four?

As far as the offensive positions go, Cannon identifies four roles which he consolidates into three positions: Creator/Handler, Scorer and Rebounder. Every team needs some guys who can put the ball in the basket, some guys who can get it to them without turning it over and guys who can clean up any misses and keep scoring opportunities alive. Because you can't be giving away the ball before you have a chance to get it to your scorers, "The Creator and the Handler", Cannon asserts, "have to be the same guy." Dylan Burkhardt adds to these roles with the addition of the "Shooter", for those players who can score but need plays called for them or other offensive help to do it. Scorers can create their own opportunities.

I like Dylan's refinement and, because I can never leave well enough alone, I would add one more. Although Creators and Handlers are usually the same guy (the traditional point guard role), they don't have to be. I think this distinction became clear to many who watched MSU play during the two stretches when Creator/Handler Kalin Lucas was out last year. Draymond Green actually assumed much of the Creator role: he showed a terrific passing touch and court vision and he would often direct the offense. And although he was capable of bringing the ball up (remember the final play against Maryland?), that was not typically his role. That job often fell to Mike Kebler, whose entire role in the offense was truly just to get the ball into the offensive end without turning it over. The fact that he had no other offensive role, of course, limited his value on that end. But, as we saw with the short-lived Chris Allen-as-point-guard experiment at Illinois, that one role is not insignificant. This also echoes some points John Gasaway made about Manny Harris' and Evan Turner's roles on their respective teams. In his Q & A with Dylan over at UMHoops.com last year he observed that "I know last year there were always other Wolverines on the floor alongside Harris who proudly wore the 'point guard' label (Kelvin Grady, C.J. Lee, Stu Douglass, etc.). I for one don't buy it. Harris had by far the highest assist rate on the team and, more importantly, he ran this offense in the literal Beilein-ian sense." Similarly, in another article Gasaway wrote that, although Turner was officially annointed "point guard" only last year, this formality "was merely the outward and visible sign of a preexisting inner state of reality: This offense goes through Turner. It has ever since Jamar Butler left." So, although P.J. Hill and Jeramie Simmons were out there bringing the ball up the floor (as Stu Douglass and others did for Manny Harris), the offense ran through Turner, which is the important facet of the Creator role. So if we break Creator and Handler apart again, still recognizing that they usually go together, we get the following (five players, ten positions, as it were):

  • Offense: Handler (H), Creator (C), Shooter (Sh), Scorer (Sc), Rebounder (R)
  • Defense: D1, D2, D3, D4, D5

So this lets you look at a team, assign roles and make an educated guess about strengths and weaknesses, as well as floor combinations that might make sense (or should be avoided). So, how does Michigan State look in this light? Using the projected lineup for next year (and assuming that the departure of Chris Allen probably means Gauna won't redshirt) I came up with the following table. I realize that there is a lot of room for debate over which roles to assign, but the main things to remember are that this isn't about how good a given player is at that role but what the team's expectations are of that player when he's on the floor.

Player Offensive Roles Defensive Roles
Lucious C,H,Sh D1
Lucas C,H,Sc D1,D2
Appling C,H,Sc D1,D2
Kebler H D1,D2
Summers Sh,R D2
Byrd Sh D3
Thornton Sh,R D2,D3
Green C,Sc,R D3,D4
Roe R D3,D4
Sherman Sh,R D5
Nix Sh,R D5
Gauna Sh,R D4,D5
Payne Sh,R D5

The first thing to notice about this is that there are no glaring weaknesses: no 0's 1's or even 2's at any single "position". In fact, the role coverage (players per role) looks as follows:

Defensive Role Coverage
Offensive Role Coverage
D1 4
Creator 4
D2 5
Handler 4
D3 4
Scorer 3
D4 3
Shooter 8
D5 4
Rebounder 8

As Kalin Lucas declared in a recent FOX Sports article: "We have guards, wings and bigs. Winning a national title is our only goal". Some observations:

  • The Spartans have a lot of guys who can rebound and a lot of guys who can score off of set plays. This should surprise no one in a Tom Izzo team.
  • MSU's biggest potential problem this year will be at the D4, especially that zone where D4 overlaps D5. This makes some sense, given the loss of Raymar Morgan. Roe is the only true D4 and his health is always a concern. The type of player likely to give the Spartans the biggest headaches is the long, athletic inside Creator/Scorer, like Ed Davis from last year's North Carolina team. The good news is that there are very few players like this in the Big Ten. Although neither exactly fits the mold, I would expect Jon Leuer and John Shurna to be very tough matchups. Other intriguing possibilities include Tyler Griffey of Illinois (remember him?) and, now that he's been reinstated, Trevor Mbakwe of Minnesota.
  • But, especially with the lack of matchups requiring a true D4 in the Big Ten, MSU should have a lot of options to go tall this year, creating matchup problems at the D5 position. With two inexperienced freshman bigs last year we never saw both on the court at the same time. This year I could imagine Sherman or Nix, with their traditional post games, being paired with Gauna, who (I hear) can play more of a pick-and-pop. You could have Lucas to handle the ball and feed it into the post with Summers and, say, Byrd on either wing for the two bigs to kick it out to.
  • The (relative) weakness at D4 makes it seem more unlikely to me that Gauna will redshirt, though it could happen.
  • We could also definitely see more quick and small lineups, with Lucas and Lucious or Lucas and Appling playing together. Playing two of them with Green, Roe and Summers gives you a lineup that can score in transition and when the set offense breaks down, as well as having plenty of rebounding to erase mistakes, especially against teams without a strong post scorer.

In short, the hallmark of this team looks like depth and versatility. All the roles have multiple coverage and the presence of players who can do a variety of things means that a lot of different lineups can be put out there to create mismatches for opponents.

This is a FanPost, written by a member of the TOC community. It does not represent the official positions of The Only Colors, Inc.--largely because we have no official positions.

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Dude...

this is brilliant. PLEASE do that one about future player Id eat that up. Id maybe classify Summers as a scorer, although he does produce better with set plays.

I still think Gauna will redshirt just because there is SO much depth at the 4 and 5. Had he been a guard I would agree, but still, I can see Payne paired with Nix/Sherman though easily.

Ooonst ooonst muthafucka!

by Loneytunes on Aug 14, 2010 3:28 AM CDT reply actions  

Remarkable post.

Will be bumped on Monday morning for maximum exposure.

by LVS on Aug 14, 2010 10:53 AM CDT reply actions  

Awesome post, Con-T

One thing I question is considering Draymond as “D3.” I think that’s a big question going in to next year, especially with the loss of Allen. I know a lot of people would like to see a big line-up of Lucas, Summers, Green, Roe, and Nix but I question Day Day’s ability to stay in front of your average Big 10 (or tournament) “3.” He didn’t wow anyone against Gordon Heyward, for one.

Also, as a hint towards applying your post to the future, I know one of the major questions on Denzel Valentine (probably a C,H right now) was whether he was enough of a “D1, D2, D3” to be effective on perimeter rotations. Apparently Izzo was satisfied.

by intrpdtrvlr on Aug 14, 2010 11:25 AM CDT reply actions  

I'm interested in Day Day at the 3 as well

He did strugle to stay in fron of Heyward, but the guy was a lottery pick. Plus we’ve heard he’s lost some additional weight this summer so his lateral movement should be improved.

by Stones1981 on Aug 16, 2010 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Absolutely

I wouldn’t rule him out with the extra conditioning but I’m not banking on it either. It’ll probably happen to some degree though there are definitely fast, 3-guard teams I’m not sure he’d be effective against.

by intrpdtrvlr on Aug 16, 2010 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well he had to play him very cautiously

as breathing on him wrong resulted in a foul. I guess we can’t count on him having the necessary lateral quickness to stay with a D3, but given his improved conditioning and ability to do a multitude of things well, I’m feeling hopeful.

by TheCrestedHelm on Aug 16, 2010 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

Green

The funny thing is, I spent more time pondering whether to put the D4 next to his name, given his height, than the D3. I think he definitely occupies the region where D3 and D4 overlap, and there are questions on either side. I put the D3 there because it’s more about what he’ll be expected to do, rather than how good he is or has been at the role. I think that when he’s in the game with Roe and a big, he’ll be expected to play D3. Last year, Raymar could pick up much of that responsibility. You’re absolutely right that how well Green does at it is one of the more important questions for MSU’s defense this year.

by Con-T on Aug 16, 2010 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Right,

so far, I’ve haven’t noticed Green in a “D3” position much at all, though he definitely did spot duty there last season (and even D5). If he’s not up to the defensive challenge, I think you’ll see him continually used in a “D4”/traditional power forward role. It won’t be so much an issue of “how well Green does” as “if Green does.”

by intrpdtrvlr on Aug 16, 2010 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

My two cents

I think that, because of the switching Izzo preaches on defense, the defensive roles for MSU really just split into two categories. If you’re in the D3 spot, you have to be able to guard the D1 position, too. That’s why I’m not sure we’ll see Draymond at the 3 much. As I’ve noted before, I think the team will really miss Raymar’s ability to play both inside and outside in Izzo’s system.

Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!

by KJ@theonlycolors on Aug 16, 2010 1:26 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Agreed

That’s the same reason I discussed Denzel Valentine in terms of questions about whether he could guard D1/D2/D3.
At the same time, Izzo does talk about primary match-ups and putting players on each other so it’s not just idle to talk about how someone compares directly to another player or position.

by intrpdtrvlr on Aug 16, 2010 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

True

Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!

by KJ@theonlycolors on Aug 16, 2010 3:20 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Well that leaves us with

the 6’4" Summers as the only experienced perimeter defender who plays regular minutes and is taller than 6 feet. One of the freshman is going to have to step up big time unless we can count on Thornton to play significant minutes out there.

by TheCrestedHelm on Aug 16, 2010 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Izzo's system

the 2-3 spots are fairly interchangeable on offense as well. I think Green would be great on offense in the 3 spot – his outside shot is not bad and he is really good at passing into the post from out there. The question is whether he can guard out there – if not we’ll need to find someone else with a little height who can.

by TheCrestedHelm on Aug 16, 2010 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

I see your point

But I think one of the interesting things about this approach is that it lets you ask whether a switch-heavy defensive scheme really makes sense with a given set of personnel. I know one of my frustrations watching MSU play defense last year was seeing opponents create mismatches by engineering a switch to get Lucious or Summers on someone they weren’t really capable of guarding.

by Con-T on Aug 16, 2010 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

High risk/high reward system

Tough to penetrate with picks/drives if it’s clicking but opens you up to individual mismatches, so you’re only as strong as your weakest link.

Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!

by KJ@theonlycolors on Aug 16, 2010 5:19 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

MSU's Ultimate Freak

The Ultimate Freak on the college level had to be Magic. He was all four offensive positions, plus he could defend all five at the college level—and the NBA level as well. His weakness was his outside shot, which wasn’t as bad as people wanted to believe, but anyone who could rip the defensive board away from an NBA or Big Ten Center and be the first guy to half court with a dribble didn’t need to have that Jason Kopono outside shot.

by Uncle Omar on Aug 15, 2010 9:18 PM CDT reply actions  

Split "Shooter"?

Very well done and lot’s of fun to think about.

I struggle a little with the “Shooter” role because I can’t get past the Shooting Guard/Small Forward who works from 12 feet out and the Center/Power Forward who works from 12 feet in. I agree that they share the ability/need to get into a position where the Creator can feed them the ball, but from a roster perspective Nix and Lucious aren’t the same. I don’t feel like we have 8, I feel like we have 4 12+’s and 4 12-‘s. As you note, at some point any system losses it’s effectiveness because it becomes too complex and I’m doing that.

On a functional level a coach could very easily use this system to evaluate the players on the floor at any given moment and realize that they have too much of one thing or not enough of another and make a switch, or even that their opponent has a bad mix and take advantage it.

Thanks for putting this together.

by CJC1992 on Aug 16, 2010 9:16 AM CDT reply actions  

Once again

you are proving how complicated basketball positioning is. I think that there will never be a truly simple way to describe modern basketball.

Ooonst ooonst muthafucka!

by Loneytunes on Aug 16, 2010 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd add shooter to Lucas

He is one of our most aggressive (and best) shooters. Yes, he handles, passes and creates for himself and others, but last year he also spent a significant amount of time coming off screens for open 3 point shots.

Also, if Nix and Sherman are listed as shooters, why not Roe? His shot usage did fall off last year but I think that was mostly a function of the knee injury. Lets put it this way, I’ll be disappointed if he’s healthy this year and not taking more shots than Nix or Sherman. No offense to those guys, but he’s a year ahead of them and more athletic, so he should be taking (and making) more shots.

by TheCrestedHelm on Aug 16, 2010 9:52 AM CDT reply actions  

Roe as a shooter?

Honestly, i would think he has to be about the worst shooter on this team. I can’t recall him making more than a handful of baskets that weren’t put-backs or dunks.

by Rainking720 on Aug 16, 2010 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Definition of Shooter

This is why I suggested the ‘split’ above. This system defines shooter as someone who needs a facilitator to get him the ball when he gets in position or gets open, not necessarily someone who shoots from outside.

Just as Summers moves without the ball to get open in the corner, Roe moves to get position on the block so that Lucas can work it in to him and he can shoot.

by CJC1992 on Aug 16, 2010 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Worst shooter

I wouldn’t necessarily say he’s the worst shooter, just that he’s more lively around the basket for those putbacks and dunks. But you bring up a good point… I can’t recall Roe taking many mid-range jumpers.

by TMadison25 on Aug 17, 2010 7:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

Roe?

I’d be disappointed if he STARTS taking more shots. Terrible was an understatement when describing Roe’s shot. Past 2 feet out he couldn’t make a shot to save his life. Felt like nearly every shot he took was way off the mark or hit the front of the rim because it didn’t get enough height. Seemed like every single game he tried at least one hook shot from like 7 feet out or so during which the ball never even made it above the rim at any point.

Don’t get me wrong – I absolutely love Roe as an MSU hoops player — but he is NOT a guy I want shooting the ball when there are so many other players on the team that can do it better.

by MooTheKow on Aug 16, 2010 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think it was his knee

that affected his ability to elevate, use spin moves in the post, and shoot with good form.

by TheCrestedHelm on Aug 17, 2010 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

The major dissapointment

with Roe was that while he was hobbling about he DIDNT develop a hook shot or a midrange jumper or really any post moves at all. I dont even think he tried to do any of that.

Ooonst ooonst muthafucka!

by Loneytunes on Aug 16, 2010 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree

I guess the question with regard to whether he’s a shooter or not is: in comparison to whom? Looking at the chart, we’re apparently supposed to believe Nix (yes the Nix with the 27% free throw conversion rate) is a shooter but Roe is not. My perspective was that if Nix is listed as a shooter, then Roe should be. Roe had a higher effective field goal percentage, higher true shot percentage, and higher straight FG percentage than Nix (plus, to state the obvious, he was much better at the line). If someone wants to argue that Nix should be de-listed I’d be fine with that too. I just don’t see any conceivable way to list Nix without also listing Roe in that role.

by TheCrestedHelm on Aug 16, 2010 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nix

has a couple nice post moves. Shooter doesnt refer to range it refers to can you put the ball in the basket on a set play. All it means is the ability to score, but not create those scoring oppurtunities consistently for themselves. Roe has a severly limited offensive skill set, thats why you dont see them setting plays for him aside from an ally-oop

Ooonst ooonst muthafucka!

by Loneytunes on Aug 16, 2010 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

I realize that shooter is just someone who can put the ball in the bucket

given that someone gets the ball into him in the right position. I prefer to think that Roe’s knee injury was the reason for his offensive struggles last season. It effected the form on his shot because he couldn’t elevate or bend his knee like he should have been able to, and also effected his ability to use any post moves in his arsenal because it limited his mobility.

I still don’t see how you call Nix a shooter and not Roe. I reiterate: Roe played more minutes, had a higher offensive rating, higher effective field goal percentage, higher true shot percentage, higher two point field goal percentage, and higher free throw percentage. It’s true that Nix was taking more shots, and using more possessions, but given that his eFG% was roughly 5 percentage points lower than Roe’s, and that teams could always resort to hacking him because he made less than a third of his free throws, I’m not sure that was a good thing.

by TheCrestedHelm on Aug 17, 2010 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Interesting article

I appreciate the thoughful analysis and perspective. I’m thinking of applying it to roles around the house. Who can effectively cook, do laundry, mow the lawn, complete minor repairs, etc.

by donaldo on Aug 16, 2010 11:18 AM CDT reply actions  

Around the house jobs . . .

If you manage your house as well as Izzo manages MSU’s, hopefully your wife & kids handle all those jobs!

by MSUDersh on Aug 16, 2010 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

D3

First, great post.

Second, am I the only one a little concerned about the D3 and even D2 a bit up there? I think the offense is going to be stellar but am worried about the wing defense and this post hasn’t helped. Honestly, D2 doesn’t look that much better outside of Kebler and playing him too long will gum up the offense.

Not to be so negative in August…just curious if anyone else has these concerns because I haven’t heard anyone bring them up. (Probably because fretting over a Final Four team in August isn’t all that fun.)

by Crosseyed on Aug 16, 2010 7:55 PM CDT reply actions  

It will have to be Byrd or Thornton if it's not Green

they are the only options on the roster, other than Summers (who wasn’t all that stellar on D last year), who can defend taller D2/3 players with good 3pt shots, unless Green develops the skills and quickness to do so. I share your concerns about being thin there.

My concern with Thornton is that he turns it over way too much for a perimeter player (27% TOrate) and he was only 2 of 10 from three point land last year. Unless those numbers improve I’m not sure he’s any more of an asset on offense than Kebler. Byrd is a freshman so we’ll just have to wait until the season starts to see if he’s willing and able to check.

It’s not going to be a problem against every team we face, because not everyone has multiple 6’4" or taller sharpshooters, but OSU looks especially capable of exploiting our weakness there with Buford, Lighty and Diebler.

by TheCrestedHelm on Aug 17, 2010 9:04 AM CDT reply actions  

I don't know

Based on pure ability and athleticism, I think Summers has always been penciled in to the bigger wing spot (“3”). Raymar was a luxury and the most likely wing starters were Allen and Summers going forward. Now, it appears Appling has an open window to win a starting spot. I don’t really care for the idea of starting Lucas and Lucious. Regardless, I think Summers is your man in this role for better or worse. If Byrd or Thornton are able to steal minutes from him based on defense, this season is in big trouble.

And I again, I remain skeptical on Day Day on the wing until proven wrong.

by intrpdtrvlr on Aug 17, 2010 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

I guess Appling, Lucas, and Summers is OK too

as a perimeter defensive lineup, but that also depends on a freshman playing good D. Whether it be Byrd or Appling, one of our frosh is going to have to step up to make up for the loss of Chris Allen. Or Thornton is going to have to become more of an offensive threat. I agree on playing Lucas and Lucious together – it could work against smaller perimeter lineups, but is not something you want to do against teams with a little length on the perimeter.

by TheCrestedHelm on Aug 17, 2010 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

I've heard

that Appling has the opportunity to be serviceable on defense as a freshman. Based on Izzo’s harsh expectations that’s probably about all one could hope for.
If he is, I bet his solidifies that other starting spot – Lucas, Appling, Summers, Roe, Nix is my prediction.

by intrpdtrvlr on Aug 17, 2010 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

Could happen

But I don’t see it happening with Green on the wing. Either he beats out Roe or Izzo starts small with Green and Roe at the two post spots.
I think it’ll be like last year – you’ll have Roe + a true center (Nix/Sherman/Payne) with Green the first man off the bench joining Roe.

by intrpdtrvlr on Aug 18, 2010 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

you wont see Payne start

I expect him to sub in for Roe more than compete with Sherman and Nix

Ooonst ooonst muthafucka!

by Loneytunes on Aug 19, 2010 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

OSU

I’ll put this in the recruiting thread too, but you can add one more name to your list: LaQuinton Ross, a four-star prospect on Scout and 6’7" wing just gave OSU a verbal.

by Con-T on Aug 17, 2010 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

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