Shot in the Foot - Duke 74 Michigan State 69
by Con-T on Nov 16, 2011 12:36 AM CST
in Michigan State Spartans Basketball
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Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski was able to achieve his 903rd career win with a victory over Michigan State Tuesday night, passing Bob Knight for first place in the all-time Division I coaching ranks. After a close and reasonably entertaining first half the Madison Square Garden officials, perhaps worried about Coach K possibly failing to notch the requisite win on national television, welded an iron lid onto MSU's basket and didn't remove it until the outlook was no longer in doubt
With the score at 41-40 in Duke's favor the welding crew was sent out to install the lid. Duke used this advantage to push their lead to 53-40 when the lid was briefly removed so that Keith Appling could shoot free-throws after a technical foul on Miles Plumlee. The lid was then reattached until Michigan State called time out with 9:12 left in the game and Duke leading 61-41 and the game effectively over.
In all seriousness, after almost 2 minutes had been played in the second half, the score was tied at 36-36. What followed was one of the worst stretches of basketball I've ever seen a Michigan State team play. By the time it was over Duke had their 20-point lead and, as in last year's game, their attempts to squander the lead in horrifying fashion fell short and they ended up settling for a 5-point blowout.
The Spartans actually played fairly well in the first half, opening up a 6-point lead at about the midway point. They were shooting fairly well and controlling the paint, getting a number of second-chance points and limiting Duke's. But turnovers were already becoming a problem and the unconscious three-point shooting of Andre Dawkins enabled Duke to retake the lead before a pretty floater by Brandon Wood just before the buzzer pulled MSU to within one at the break.
Dawkins continued his hot shooting in the second half and was joined by his backcourt partner Seth Curry, who finished with 20 points, half of them from the line. Duke also tightened things up in the paint as well, led by the Plumlees and Ryan Kelly, frequently limiting MSU to one shot on the many occasions they missed. Keith Appling took over in the last 2:13, scoring 11 of his 22 points, but it wasn't enough. Dawkins, by the way, can join the long line of players who emerged from relative obscurity to have a career game against the Spartans. Dawkins sported a 14.4% usage rate last year, just escaping Ken Pomeroy's "nearly invisible" category and he had scored a combined 10 points in Duke's first two games. He ended up with 26, including 6-10 from three, only the third time in his career the junior had scored as many as 20.
As Chris Vannini and others have pointed out, this marks the third straight game (going back to last year's tournament game with UCLA) that MSU has done a faceplant to fall at least 20 points down, only to cut it to single-digits by the end. Those rallies may be concealing a serious problem. If MSU is going to go through 8 minute stretches of complete inability to score on a regular basis, there may be a lot of long and painful games in store for this season.
The big question for this team was always going to be offense and, after two games, that question remains. The worst part of Tuesday night's game was that the team went cold from close range, rather than from beyond the arc as in the North Carolina game and the two exhibitions. Keith Appling, Brandon Wood and Travis Trice actually posted an excellent shooting line of .706/.500/.880 (2pt%/3pt%/FT%). Unfortunately, Draymond Green, Adreian Payne and Derrick Nix combined to shoot 6-21 (21%) from two and Green chipped in another 0-4 from three-point range. This poor shooting combined with a lack of discipline at both ends (21 turnovers and 29 fouls leading to 41 Duke foul shots) was too much for the Spartans to overcome, even with Duke getting sloppy towards the end.
The four factors chart and further analysis after the jump.
This was a 75-possession game, a pace that was somewhat inflated by the high rate of turnovers by both teams. The MSU defense did manage to hold Duke to just under a point per possession but there were some obvious issues. The really tall blue bar on the right is the Duke free-throw rate. In this game the Blue Devils actually attempted 2 more foul shots than field goals - and made more than twice as many as the Spartans attempted, though ten of them were in the last 3 minutes of the game. There's a right way and a wrong way to play physical basketball. By playing defense with their hands instead of their feet, failing to help in the post and generally acting frustrated (Derrick Nix) MSU made it easy for the referees to switch to auto-pilot when making the calls.
Winning the battle on the offensive boards, as the Spartans did, can erase a lot of sins, but if you shoot poorly AND commit a lot of turnovers AND constantly send your opponent to the line no amount of offensive rebounds is going to save you.
On the plus side of the ledger, Brandon Wood continued his emergence and played a reasonably effective 26 minutes scoring 15 points on 12 shots with 2 assists and 2 boards. Branden Dawson chipped in 9 points and 3 rebounds in his 27 minutes.
Point guard continues to be an issue as Keith Appling and Travis Trice combined for 5 turnovers and no assists. Assists in general were a scarce commodity and MSU had only 8 of them on 26 made field goals. Draymond Green tried to pick up the slack but only managed 2 assists against 5 turnovers and he needed 15 shots to record his ten points.
With the less-brutal portion of the non-conference schedule coming up, MSU's mission remains clear: offense. Three-point shooting is 6-32 after two games and they are not running plays effectively, with an assist percentage of 36.4 - they haven't been below 58% for a year since at least 2003. This has led to an effective field goal percentage of 38.9% Granted this has come against two of the top programs in the country, but they'll need to begin stepping it up ASAP. Texas Southern awaits.
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Long way to go.
Izzo has a lot of work to do in establishing his 5 man units with players playing the right roles, especially offensively. When you think about it, after being angry about the result, it certainly makes sense. You have a ton of new guys and most of the returnees are in new roles.
I’m assuming Nix will take the brunt of the criticism, and I suppose that makes sense. He missed a ton of layups, and reverted to last year’s Nix, getting angry and showing his frustration. Green showed a lot of frustration as well, which isn’t good either. You need a better performance out of your senior against competition like this.
Duke made a ton of threes, but that’s what they do, and most of them were pretty well contested. That’s their primary offensive weapon. They’re going to hit some.
Izzo now has seen some things about most of his players, and it’s time to use the rest of the non-conference to get the roles set, knock off the offensive rust and get the players to buy in.
Nix
I thought the same thing about Nix last night, but in fairness take a look at the free press write up on this game. Apparently he stood up in the locker room and addressed the team about his performance. The kid is trying. It takes some people longer.
Mea Culpa's are admirable
but the basic problem with Nix is that he has the finishing touch of a jackhammer. This has been a problem for going on three years now. He can do everything – establish position, receive the pass, make a good move – except actually put the ball in the bucket. We needed the points he left out there.
I think there was some frustration over the fact that usually, when you have a point blank shot with a defender in your face, you get some foul calls. We got very few last night considering how often we went inside and how often we put shots up when we got the ball down low.
by TheCrestedHelm on Nov 16, 2011 9:23 AM CST up reply actions
Frustration over Officiating
Heres the thing: as much as it may irritate those of us watching at home, basketball reffing requires a mixture of seeing and perceiving. When we were running a reasonable offense (1st half) that was the best officiated college basketball game involving MSU that I have seen in a long time.
The problem is that when you demonstrate a complete inability to finish (or, in a larger sense, execute an offense) when you are not being fouled (as Nix and MSU did) then it becomes much more difficult for the officials to see when you are being impeded – especially in the paint. Once we started duffing shots and just flat out dropping the ball the calls became much more one sided and exacerbated the huge Duke run in the middle of the second half.
I'm not saying the refs weren't calling things correctly
just that I think our players perceived that the refs weren’t calling things correctly. I think they were expecting at least some foul calls on those close-in shots, but weren’t getting any. They probably need to get over it and stop expecting the refs to bail them out when they don’t finish – letting the refs get into your head isn’t the best way to win a basketball game.
by TheCrestedHelm on Nov 18, 2011 9:49 AM CST up reply actions
Long way to go. Izzo has a lot of work to do.
By the time we figure it out, we will be a 8th or 9th seed and if we manage to win a game in the tourney, we will be staring at UNC, Duke, Kentucky in the second round of NCAA. I am tired with so many TO’s even when we had Kalin Lucas.
by spartynation on Nov 16, 2011 8:44 AM CST up reply actions
I agree with your tourney prediction
But I see this team pulling off a sweet sixteen run definitely. Look how in their first two games they actually kept up for a while. Imagine once things start clicking how these games will go
When you look at it
This is a very young and talented but also very incomplete team. We need next years class to really fill out a rotation, two bigs and two wings will be insanely useful.
Agreed on Brandon Wood
was nice to see him start being a little more assertive. He’s going to need to be a big part of this years team. In the exhibitions and UNC game I was kind of surprised by how quiet he was. Given that he came to MSU because he wanted to be on a bigger stage to audition for the NBA I would have thought he would be much more aggressive and someone who was out to make his presence known.
The biggest disappointment yesterday was obviously Nix. Aside from his embarrassingly dirty play with the knee-drop on the Duke player’s head (which I hope Izzo punishes/benches him for after reviewing the tape) – yesterday was a crystal clear sign that the childish Nix that stayed home from Maui last year isn’t gone. He showed some really nice things in the exhibitions and against UNC – but if he’s going to crumble like communism the moment things don’t go his way it’s going to be a long year.
I haven’t actually looked at the box scores – but it felt like there were long stretches without Dawson. Was he on the bench just because he wasn’t guarding his man very well?
by MooTheKow on Nov 16, 2011 6:21 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
This. The end.
The biggest disappointment yesterday was obviously Nix. Aside from his embarrassingly dirty play with the knee-drop on the Duke player’s head (which I hope Izzo punishes/benches him for after reviewing the tape) – yesterday was a crystal clear sign that the childish Nix that stayed home from Maui last year isn’t gone. He showed some really nice things in the exhibitions and against UNC – but if he’s going to crumble like communism the moment things don’t go his way it’s going to be a long year.
Tonight's going to be a good night.
by Spartalytical on Nov 16, 2011 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Buzz's Girlfriend WOOOOF
Nix – My God no other 6’8" human being would miss those lay ups, but were stuck with him this year so hopefully he gets it together. His game is so ugly though it’s tough to watch as he can’t get more then 1 or 2 inches off the floor.
What concerns me more is Keith Appling is completely lost playing PG and looks like he has 0 confidence in anything he’s doing…he had all off season to work on his handling and passing, but if we get NOTHING out of him like we did the first two games we aren’t beating anyone with division 1 talent.
We have no consistent outside shooting threat since Byrd only has 1 foot, and Wood has been passive so far. I think Wood is just trying to fit in but eventually he just needs to take it over when we are struggling to score.
Trice looks like a good PG of the future as soon as his decision making improves which it will in time.
Dawson is going to be a flat out stud.
Gary Harris and Costello can’t get here soon enough. Thank God Harris is coming we have 0 depth at guard.
is it me or does it seem for the past 5 years even with the success all of Izzo’s teams seem to just make horrendous turnovers that i don’t seen any other teams do?
I’m so sick of losing to UNC and Duke…UNC is loaded but that Duke team isn’t anything special, but we can’t expect to beat anyone with a performance like that.
Appling
Was just, oh I don’t know, our leading scorer and the reason we got back into this game. I don’t know if he is the source of our troubles. He looked like the ice-in-veins Appling from last year down the stretch of this game.
by Chitown Spartan on Nov 16, 2011 9:02 AM CST up reply actions
Appling was our leading scorer for two not so good reasons:
1) BC nobody else could score, and
2) BC Duke was letting him drive to the hoop late for quick layups when they were just trying to get the game to end. They were clearly in no-foul mode, so he had pretty open looks to the basket.
Granted, Duke’s strategy nearly backfired, as our guys forced the turnover with ~12 seconds left & down 5, but couldn’t convert on the inbounds play.
But I think the stat about Appling being leading scorer is misleading. He, like everybody else, disappeared during the first 10 minutes of the second half, when the Devils put the game away.
Exactly
Easy to score in bunches when the pressure is completely off. I love Appling hopefully this is just growing pains. It would have probably been better if he had a couple more cup cakes to open up the year and get in more work at the point.
My point though long term if he doesn’t work out at the point we are screwed, Trice is a true PG but we aren’t even going to get another PG in the mix until 2013.
Trice is our PG - I'd be shocked if he wasn't start there by the time B1G play rolls around
Appling can run the point at times, and if Green can get himself back into distributer mode than we should be in better shape than we have been most of the last decade when it comes to ball distributers.
I'm willing to give Appling some level of blame
but if no-one can score he hardly deserves all of it. Why blame the leading scorer of the night for not scoring more when there are a bunch of other people who could have chipped in more.
Our lack of assists could be partially on him as well, but when you are constantly getting the ball to guys in good position and then they fail to finish it’s not really totally on you either. Nix should have scored at least 5 dozen baskets at point blank range, but missed all of them. Payne fumbled a couple of would-have-been assists and failed to convert on a couple more. Blaming the point guard because the big guy can’t make a shot 2 feet from the basket is putting it on the wrong person.
by TheCrestedHelm on Nov 16, 2011 10:03 AM CST up reply actions
Not exactly
It’s not that I think Appling doesn’t struggle at the point, it is rather with the idea that we got “nothing” out of him. Four points on two no-pressure layups is hardly a majority of his 22 points. Also he shot 8-10 FG/ 2-3 3Pt/ 4-5 FT and just one turnover (it was a bad one that led to a fast break dunk). Appling is not the issue, at all. He is going to have to be our scorer and he will be.
Here are some other numbers: Green 4-15 FG/ 0-4 3PT and 5 turnovers. Couple that with Nix and Payne’s ineffective offensive post performance and those are the issues in this game. If Green worked more in the post and Nix and Payne made a few more of their shots we win this game.
by Chitown Spartan on Nov 16, 2011 10:14 AM CST up reply actions
Appling was awful.
Only 22 points? God he needs to transfer. Completely lost out there…
by inIZwetrust on Nov 16, 2011 10:05 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
No depth at guard? Not exactly.
We don’t have Duke depth, but we have two very solid SG (Appling and Wood) and one true PG (Trice). That is some depth. No depth is nothing at either position.
In fact, the depth at SG is a dilemma for this team. From what we have seen so far, it appears to me that Trice should just be the primary PG going forward. He’s the natural PG on this team. The problem if he does play is that most likely you have to sit either Appling or Wood. Both of them are capable of major contributions, but neither has the size to play the 3. Which one would embrace a sixth man role. The incumbant Appling who was expected to lead the team in the offseason at the point or a senior transfer trying to make a name for himself?
I think we're looking at a 3 man guard rotation this season:
1) TT at point, Appling at 2
2) TT at point, Wood at 2
3) Appling at point, Wood at 2
There’s just not much of a way around it.
It appears that Appling & Wood both can bring the ball up the floor, and if we have Green in while Trice is sitting, they can always get the ball to him at the top of the key to initiate the offense – Green is smart enough & has good enough vision to be able to set up some plays if he gets the ball up there.
Next season, I think we’ll see Denzel do a lot of the PG duties when Trice is sitting, with Appling at the 2 & Harris at the 3, then Harris moving to 2 & Dawson at 3 when Appling sitting.
I think it shakes out at the end of the game
down by 4 points, Izzo will throw out Appling at the one, Gary Harris at two, Dawson 3, Payne 4 and Nix 5.
That will be sweet
Next season. This season write in Wood for Harris & think you’re pretty much spot on.
by MSUDersh on Nov 16, 2011 6:06 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
oh and put Green at 4 & Payne at 5
by MSUDersh on Nov 16, 2011 6:07 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I'll be interested to see
how much losing Green impacts the team. He’s got a tough job as a leader on a team that’s transitioning era’s in a way. Next years team will be though of completely separately than the Kalin Lucas teams, just as I consider Chris Hill’s frosh campaign and Neitzel’s junior year transitional campaigns, so do I consider this.
Yeah next season the only senior is Nix
As of now, not even any walk ons joining him for his swan song center court kiss.
With that in mind, I’m really hoping that we see Appling & Payne step up in the leadership category. Also wonder if Dawson will be more vocal & demonstrative as a soph.
I think that's one of the reasons
Izzo pursued Valentine so much, he’ll be a vocal leader on the team. I think Kieth will as well as Trice.
Difficult game to watch
I went from moments where I was incredibly excited about how good this team might be able to be this year to stretches where I was almost speechless with horror. My guess is that we get a lot of that this year through growing pains.
"And how much are intangibles worth? 10%? 20%?" - kj@theonlycolors
by intrpdtrvlr on Nov 16, 2011 8:00 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
Rec, not Flag
Not sure why my attempt to Rec this ended up Flagging it. But I very much agree with this sentiment. I was both incredibly pleased and incredibly frustrated last night. This must be what parents of teenagers feel like. “Oh, that’s great, I’m so proud of you! Wait, you did WHAT?!?! What is wrong with you?”
"It was worth it. Every needle, every dose of medicine that I've taken. That's why you play the game. A chance to be on a Final Four team, a chance to win championships." Delvon Roe
by Ducking Delvon on Nov 16, 2011 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
Same here.
So much promise followed by epic fail after epic fail. I’m confident Izzo can turn it around. Green can get it going and I think Nix will, too.
Well....
Growing pains were expected. I just didn’t expect them to look like this. We were feeding the post ok, but we missed the gimmes and had no one there to rebound.
Dawson disappeared after he took an ill advised shot, we will assume message received.
I’m not sure what’s going on with the turnovers. Those alone may be killing our team. That combined with waking up from our halftime naps…..
by msuduster on Nov 16, 2011 8:34 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Turnovers
I put this on Izzo. It’s hard to criticize him too much, but turnovers are a legit criticism. It has been going on for years. Even the 09 team, probably the best since 2000, turned it over a lot. I’m sure Izzo knows the value of possession, but it seems like what he does with the team takes away from focusing on not turning the ball over. Seems that way at least.
Part of it...
…seems like it’s a feature of the offensive sets he runs, a greater propensity for things to go wrong and a guy isn’t quite where he’s supposed to be when he’s supposed to be there.
by witless chum on Nov 16, 2011 9:20 AM CST up reply actions
Given the amount of new players...
And the fact that even the returnees are in new roles, I am not as bothered by the turnovers against high pressure defense as I was with experienced teams. These guys need to get used to playing together. Going to have some choppy play, especially against pressure D, early on.
by rook34 on Nov 16, 2011 9:32 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Turnovers-why cant we get better.
I think even if we have Kobe Bryant, Steve Nash we would still average 15TO’s a game.
That second half was tough to watch
Both games so far we’ve had a stretch of play where we’ve been terrible. It’s too bad because for the other 30 or so minutes of each game we’ve played pretty well.
Obviously a tough game for Nix. I thought he did a great job of getting position offensively but he just couldn’t make a layup.
I don’t want to give up on it yet, but Appling just doesn’t look comfortable at the point. It seems like every time he’s running pg it takes him about 20 seconds just to initiate the offense. We have a much better flow when Trice is running the show.
I still think this team can be pretty good come March.
Nix in the post
It looked to me that everytime Nix got the ball in the post he worked his way down underneath the basket and shot it from directly under. Wouldn’t he have been better served with an easier shot just in front if it? That would require less of a finesse shot from up and under, I think.
I noticed this several times.
by Chitown Spartan on Nov 16, 2011 9:05 AM CST up reply actions
Nix
I feel like MSU hasn’t seen a big guy really develop in years, and he is no exception to this rule so far. For every good low post move he has, he butterfingers it or works himself out of the play on 4 others. Both he and Payne are usually pretty weak in those close to the basket situation for some reason also, something that MSU big guys have been known for since Paul Davis was here.
Its also concerning to see the lack of mental toughness seep in again, especially with that horrible knee drop move that wasn’t seen.
"It's a trap!"
by AdmiralAkbar on Nov 16, 2011 9:26 AM CST up reply actions
Suton developed really well.
Waiting for someone to trot out the first Fire Dwayne Stephens post. Did I miss it? How do you blame coaching for a player blowing layups? At some point, it is on the player.
by rook34 on Nov 16, 2011 9:34 AM CST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
Not really sure what the point of that is
We have 10+ guys over the last decade who all share the same characteristics:
Weak play around the basket
“butterfingers” approach to ball handling
NBA Jam “I’ll block everything” approach to defense
I do realize that there are going to be players that never seem to get it, but this is a pattern. And if you want to argue about people like Suton or Lorbek, I would say they already had the above skills before they even arrived on campus.
"It's a trap!"
by AdmiralAkbar on Nov 16, 2011 9:52 AM CST up reply actions
Suton was a total mess when he got to campus.
Not going to do this again. Had same exact argument last season. And you never give credit for the guys who do a good job (Morgan, Green, etc.) It is always the guys were either great when they got here or that our coaches can’t make anyone better. Lot more complicated than that.
by rook34 on Nov 16, 2011 10:02 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
You are right, we did
Agree to disagree I guess.
I tend to look at the 5 in terms of guys who don’t do this, I think there have been plenty of 3-4 guys who have vastly improved (if anything I would say its a strength of our training program). And again not saying its as simple as “100% coaching” either.
"It's a trap!"
by AdmiralAkbar on Nov 16, 2011 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
Another example that comes to mind
Is Payne. He’s played pretty well in both games now. Can you imagine him getting strong rebounds against these teams last year. He has clearly improved his game. 12 boards last night is a testament to that. Also, Nix in the first half actually had a beautiful fake one way and then turn and hook shot the other way. That’s new in his game and he needs more of it, but this two game sample is not going to tell us a whole lot about how our post game will be this year. But it does look better. We miss Roe obviously.
by Chitown Spartan on Nov 16, 2011 10:20 AM CST up reply actions
Payne has clearly improved several aspects of his game
Defense being the most notable in my opinion; he went form looking totally lost last season to being pretty decent this year so far.
"It's a trap!"
by AdmiralAkbar on Nov 16, 2011 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
I think that our bigs are actually
going to be really good this year. Nix has talent as does Payne it just requires discipline and practice, plus sometimes people (i.e. Nix yesterday) have bad games, lets not take one game as a pattern just yet.
Suton was a disaster as a freshman!
This is crazy. Suton was a nightmare when he arrived. He was a horrible at Lansing Everett. His transformation at Michigan State was probably the biggest improvement under Tom Izzo.
The only thing that comes close was how Jason Richardson improved his 3pt shooting from his freshman year to his sophmore year.
Stephens played like that too.
Lay-in the 2 footer, rather than go up strong. Payne and Nix do it because no one else is telling them to in practice.
Do you attend practices
To ascertain this assertion? How do you know what they are told to do in practice or in games?
by Chitown Spartan on Nov 16, 2011 1:31 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah but when
highly touted recruits continue to NOT develop as they should then it falls on the coaching. I am still firmly in the Fire Stephens camp.
Recruiting will suffer.
No Stephens? Probably no Roe, Morgan, or any of the other really good players we’ve gotten out of Ohio.
You act like he would be replaced with a tin can
"It's a trap!"
by AdmiralAkbar on Nov 16, 2011 6:02 PM CST up reply actions
Stephens is a really good recruiter.
He’s the next to take a smaller coaching gig, so you’ll probably get your wish in the next couple of years.
Thank god
Are you really suggesting that Tom Izzo can’t pull a good bigs coach from a smaller school? Perhaps we’ll see someone like Antonio Smith as an assistant, wonder how he’d do schooling big guys.
Our rebounding would definitely improve.
Tone never graduated MSU.
Won’t ever coach there until he does. Not sure he wants to anyone, and rebounding isn’t our problem this year.
Would love someone to name me a good “bigs coach”. No one can.
Well
I trust Izzo to find someone who will fit his vision. Stephens is the one assistant I’ve ever really disliked and it’s because he clearly doesn’t do his job as well as other programs’ assistants do.
Don't buy it
Bigs are more hit and miss, because you end up recruiting guys just for their size who are much rawer than anyone you’d recruit to a major college as a guard. I remember an extreme example a 7’5" or so kid come out of a small school in the U.P. He wasn’t that great playing against class D competition, but he got a scholarship to Indiana and spent five years on Bobby Knight’s bench.
Also, if Stephens has been doing a bad job for a decade, that’s on Izzo.
by witless chum on Nov 16, 2011 10:36 PM CST up reply actions
Todd Lindeman
I love the notion that there are these genius “big man” coaches wandering the coaching wilderness. The vast majority of coaches played guard. And just because you were a good “big” player doesn’t mean you would be a good coach. It is one of the biggest fallacies in basketball. If such a coach existed, he would be ridiculously famous and highly paid. Bigs are a crapshoot.
by rook34 on Nov 17, 2011 8:25 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
There are maybe three or four schools with a solid record with "bigs"
UConn, Georgetown, Florida.
Everyone else is hit or miss. UNC, Duke, UCLA, and everyone else’s record is very hit or miss. I can name you a list of bigs from each school who didn’t meet expectations.
OSU’s have almost all left after one season. They don’t count.
Bigs don’t pan out a lot more than they do. That’s pretty much at every school, too.
yeah but
the Wears left because all the other UNC bigs dominated their PT. Its not a bust if the reason you leave is that you have too many other good bigs
Green seems to get a hall pass for some reason
I said this last year, and it looks like it needs to be said again this year: Green needs to stop having games like this last one. No matter how much of a sniper from 3pt range he thinks he is, he is brutal from outside when he gets cold like yesterday. He also has this weird tendency to go into a shell when the team is playing badly (Bob Knight kept pointing this out in his own obnoxious way yesterday) and won’t even look for passes, thinks he is the ultimate slasher, etc. This is counterproductive 100% of the time.
"It's a trap!"
by AdmiralAkbar on Nov 16, 2011 9:22 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
+1
I think… he thinks he needs to do it all by himself. I’m curious what he is like in practice? If he does the same thing, do most shots drop, or perhaps Izzo give him a longer leash out of respect for his leadership? I’d much rather see Appling/Wood taking the majority of his shots and see him as more of a point forward distributing from the high post. I was a little suprised that it took so long for Byrd and Kearney to come in, I’m guess BK is probably still under consideration for a redshirt…
All that being said, it’s WAY early and 1/2 the fun is seeing these guys develop and grow together.
by spartanbballfan on Nov 16, 2011 10:05 AM CST up reply actions
What leadership?
I think the fact that Izzo seems to be continuing to tolerate the way Green plays at times is pretty bad. When we get down Green seems to regress into a guy who is very obviously frustrated; not really a “rally the troops” kind of leadership role.
"It's a trap!"
by AdmiralAkbar on Nov 16, 2011 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
Green's Leadership is Well Established
Well we’ve had one game this year, but there are pretty obvious examples of him putting the team on his back when pushed to the wall (Wisconsin, the triple double immediately come to mind), and his off the court actions are legendary (recruiting as a senior, symbolic gestures, universal acclaim for his attitude and leadership in practice). Whether that leadership translates into wins is another thing, but the leadership is there. Izzo generally never lets a dumb decision go without an earful, even for Green
I think there is a difference between being an off the court leader and one on the court
For every shining example for leadership you could point to on the floor for him, I could show you two more like yesterday where he was frustrated, sulking and jacking outside shots like he was the only guy on the team.
A great guy off the court consistently doesn’t mean he can consistently do it on the court as well.
"It's a trap!"
by AdmiralAkbar on Nov 16, 2011 3:53 PM CST up reply actions
Leadership
I can’t believe we are bringing Green’s leadership into question. In the history of MSU basketball, there has been Magic, Skiles, Mateen, Travis Walton and Green that are far and away in their own class of leadership. Green has taken lesser roles on the team, coming off the bench when he was without doubt one of the best five players on the court. He’s played out of position. He’s played injured and sick. As already noted, he has recruited as a senior and brought the right attitude into practice. This is a ridiculous argument. Step away from the ledge guys. This team just played to top 5 teams in the country and showed some heart, something we didn’t see last season. MSU is going to have a good year, we just aren’t on UNC’s and Duke’s talent level right now. They are better than we are.
by hawks22gk on Nov 16, 2011 5:06 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think part of the problem is putting him in the same spot as those other guys you list there
He might be a pretty good leader, but he is no Magic, Mateen or even a Travis Walton. He says all the right things off the court, but when it comes down to crunch time, I see him do things like pout, yell and jack useless threes more often than not.
"It's a trap!"
by AdmiralAkbar on Nov 16, 2011 5:51 PM CST up reply actions
Leading ain't starring
… and Green needs to learn the difference. He’s just not talented enough to take over games, period. Someone should sit him down and outline the pay difference between an NBA role player and a D League chucker.
And BTW, putting Green with those other four guys is sacrilege.
Well jury is still out actually
Say this team somehow makes a run to the Sweet Sixteen or beyond and Day Days a big part of that, then I definitely throw him with Travis Walton and Scott Skiles (maybe not the other two because they won championships)
Definitely
How does Magic end up in these discussions?
How many of us can really attest to his leadership skills in college?
That was a little too long ago for me.
Walton didn’t have near the responsibility on court as Green has. He didn’t have to worry about scoring which made any points he did get mostly gravy. This team is relying on Green for points, boards, playmaking and leadership. Not making excuses for his awful game but that’s a lot to adjust to.
"Brick killed a guy! Did you throw a trident?"
wrong
Walton was the leader on a team that included a Jr. Drew Nietzel who had until that point, never been a scorer. A freshman Raymar Morgan. A young, soft Goran Suton. A lost Marquise Gray. An ungifted Drew Naymick and a near-sighted sharpshooter MoJo. That team made the tournament on the back of defense that Travis Walton held everyone responsible for playing. Besides that being Izzo’s best coaching job to date, it was also very heavy on leadership responsibility. Green has a similar task this year. He’s got a roster full of freshman and immature sophomores many of whom are being thrown into situations that typically they wouldn’t have if Lucious and Sherman were still around.
How is that wrong
Upperclassmen are usually relied on for leadership and as you point out Neitzel was a jr and carried the offense that year. Walton wasn’t far removed from being a knucklehead freshman. When I think of Walton the leader, it’s the more mature sr on the FF team with scorers around him. An easier job than Green has.
"Brick killed a guy! Did you throw a trident?"
Neitzel scored the points
But the only reason that team made the tournament is because Travis made them play defense. That team was the least talented MSU team of the post Ray Weathers era. Travis willed them to the tournament. He was the one holding everybody accountable. One of the more remarkable leadership jobs I’ve seen considering his limitations as a player.
I don't think so
For starters, you can qualify for a medical redshirt if you play in 20% (or fewer) of team games. I’m not sure if the freshman redshirts have similar limits, but I don’t remember them being all or nothing deals. Regardless, there are plenty of “medical” redshirts given out every year that are under the table freshman redshirts after rotations start to get pinned down.
Didn't playing Devin Gardner
in Rich Rods final game blow his? I know thats football but i feel like its a similar situation.
I think there's also a rule that
besides the “only 20% of team games” limit, none of them can be in the second half of the season.
I've got this terrible pain in all the diodes down my left-hand side.
Bradley-Terry rankings for college football and basketball: because there aren't enough computer rankings already.
Medical redshirts, yes.
If it’s not for medical reasons, technically you can only play in exhibitions. And whether there are schools that abuse that or not, I’d rather we didn’t.
I've got this terrible pain in all the diodes down my left-hand side.
Bradley-Terry rankings for college football and basketball: because there aren't enough computer rankings already.
I know what you are saying but "abuse"...
Is kind of a harsh word to use. Many players suffer injuries that impact their ability practice extensively for stretches of season and this is naturally more detrimental to freshman.
Regardless, its neither here nor there in this case. I was pointing out that early season action doesn’t necessarily disqualify a redshirt as a possibility. Though looking at our guard situation I think BK playing this year is probably for the best.
I don't consider it "abuse" if it's really due to injury.
If a guy plays in three or four games early, is clearly overwhelmed, and then just so happens to suffer a mysterious, Sabanesque “injury”, that’s abuse of the rule.
I've got this terrible pain in all the diodes down my left-hand side.
Bradley-Terry rankings for college football and basketball: because there aren't enough computer rankings already.
Doug Wiggins...
…DB at WMU who was a four-star prospect who went to Miami for a year before transferring claimed that the staff there tried to get him to have a totally unneeded knee surgery so he could have a medical redshirt.
by witless chum on Nov 17, 2011 10:37 PM CST up reply actions
Agree
Green hasn’t played well and doesn’t hear it’s overlooked here.
Obviously, however, Izzo gives him the green light to shoot those threes because he did it all last year and is still doing it now. Maybe izzo gets a pass too?
Green hasn't SHOT well, but other parts of his game have been strong.
16 rebs and a handful of assists against a huge UNC front line is pretty damn impressive.
The problem is when the team starts scuffling for points, DayDay takes it on himself to try to generate offense, and that’s not really his game. Brandon Wood really needed to touch the ball on every possession in the 2nd half last night, as he was the only semi-effective scorer we had (until Appling’s late run).
"Everyone who drinks is not a poet. Maybe some of us drink because we're not poets." - Arthur Bach
Green's Drives
Green has also been pretty effective at getting to the basket on drives. The problem he has had is finishing – however, hes been having a problem because the defense has been collapsing on him. Maybe it is asking to much to get him to dish it out? But with his passing skills you wouldn’t think so.
The guys is a unique player and it feels like both he and the coaching staff get in trouble trying to max out his abilities.
This.
He’s not shooting well (and shouldn’t be called on to be an outside shooter), but averaging a dozen rebounds against UNC and Duke is pretty solid.
I've got this terrible pain in all the diodes down my left-hand side.
Bradley-Terry rankings for college football and basketball: because there aren't enough computer rankings already.
+1 million
He needs to be a distributor and a rebounder first and foremost. I hate hate hate when he gets the ball at the top of the key in a situation where we are behind, and just totally telegraph’s that he’s taking ti to the basket to try an off-balance shot over a taller defender. And he should not be taking random three’s, which, again, everyone knows he’s taking.
Draymond is best when he’s scoring his points off put-backs. he doesn’t need to be trying to drive the lane or sit out on the perimeter, because he can easily score 12-15 points on putbacks alone. beyond that, the only time he’s truly effective from the perimeter is on Pick and Pops, so give him a few of those a game, but tell him he’s not allowed to shoot from out there beyond that.
I think that, because he was such a big part of the team’s offense last year, he is still in the mindset of trying to do everything. He needs to play off his strengths and not try to do so much.
Green = Johnny 'Jack-it-Up'
That first half 3pt shot he missed a foot and a half WIDE was one of the ugliest shots I’ve seen in recent history. So bad it was replayed over and over on TV.
Izzo is just as frustrated with Green as anyone. He’s always yelling at him. (Ok, not as much as his yelling at Dawson to play D, but still LOTS of yelling.)
Reincarnation of Jumping Johnny Green?
I WISH. Though maybe Dawson could be. . .
by MSUDersh on Nov 16, 2011 6:15 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Panic much?
I haven’t commented much, but jeezum crow there is a LOT of bitching and moaning on here. Folks, we just lost to the #1 team and number #6 team in the nation. And we did NOT look horrible, save for about the middle third of each game. We’ve started strong both games and finished strong both games. There’s no reason to be abandoning ship and calling us an 8 or 9 seed at this point. We’ve got a young team that’s showed a LOT these first to games IMO. Take a breath people. (some not all)
by inIZwetrust on Nov 16, 2011 9:58 AM CST via mobile reply actions 5 recs
Finishing "Strong"
In both cases was a bit of a mirage. Both teams went into a softer, no foul defense and we clawed back to make the margin respectable. I mean we certainly played better, and some shots but we can’t take too much comfort in the final margins.
Great Job Con-T
This article was very well written. It was objective and I appreciated it.
Apparently
Before transferring, Sherman taught Nix everything he knew about ball handling.
Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude
Reserving Judgment
It’s safe to say that for this particular MSU team, you could not have drawn up a harder start to a season when you factor in (1) the opponents; (2) the locations; and (3) the surrounding hoopla/circumstances. So, as much as I may agree right now with some of the opinions expressed above, I also realize it’s way too early to form any reliable conclusions about this team. Once November is over and we’ve played some actual home games and had a chance to play teams that, you know, aren’t UNC and Duke, I think we’ll have a much more accurate picture of our strengths and weaknesses.
"It was worth it. Every needle, every dose of medicine that I've taken. That's why you play the game. A chance to be on a Final Four team, a chance to win championships." Delvon Roe
by Ducking Delvon on Nov 16, 2011 12:43 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Is there such a thing as regressing to the mean on made lay-ups?
If so, I hope we do that.
Also, something I kept noticing and violently reprimanding my couch cushion for was the amount of offensive rebounds that were squandered because we had two guys going for it with one knocking it away from the other or both instantaneously knocking it away from the other. Kind of a weird thing to complain about, I know, but still frustrated me nonetheless.
Raise your hand
if you thought the record would be anything other than 0-2 after these games
Keep it up if you’re lying.
The team is right where we thought they’d be, no set rotation, periods of offensive ineptitude, turnovers everywhere, a work in progress.
They need more practice but have 4 more games before FSU in 2 weeks. That may be a bigger crime than playing UNC-Duke back to back, no time off.
The team has pieces but no puzzle yet. I like the fire shown by Dawson and Appling. This team doesn’t seem so apathetic, I like that.
I feel like Dawson and Wood can play with anybody. Payne is on his way to being a real player. If Trice can shake the bad shot syndrome, he might be one too.
Keith was pretty selfish but that’s how he plays best. He needs to score.
Nix OTOH tries to score every time he receives a pass and simply cannot over taller players. He needs to create space for shooters and kick it back out.
Don’t know how to explain Green’s play last night but it was pretty bad. Last 4 games for him against UNC and Duke have been that way.
Results for Byrd, BK and Gauna are all inconclusive at this point. Funny though how BK has registered more points in 2 min than AT has in 40. Also funny how he immediately gets a shot up while Byrd passed up an open 3 for a turnover. Rust B Gone.
Looking forward to seeing what happens next.
"Brick killed a guy! Did you throw a trident?"
AT = Remind me why he plays again?
Anyone? Has there ever been a less effective player who gets more minutes than AT in the last decade? Does anyone other than Tom Izzo have a clue as to why he gets the minutes he does?
At this point, I don’t understand why he gets PT over any of our younger guys, who could at least be benefiting from the experience.
"It's a trap!"
by AdmiralAkbar on Nov 16, 2011 2:22 PM CST up reply actions
Closest comparison to AT that I can think of
Would maybe be David Thomas on the championship teams?
And even DT played within his role – come in to play a little D, get some rebounds, and not make any stupid mistakes.
I guess the only real similarities these two have is, both are clearly a lot less talented than the rest of the players in the rotation. But at least DT was on championship teams with All-Americans & future pros like Mateen, MoPete, Bell, Richardson & Randolph. So the others on the floor didn’t need him to do anything but kill some minutes while another guy was resting/being sat for foul trouble.
Like I’ve said before, I think AT has become this team’s Brandon Inge.
David Thomas was much better than AT
He was just a warm body on those teams for sure, but AT is a liability on the court in my opinion
"It's a trap!"
by AdmiralAkbar on Nov 16, 2011 3:22 PM CST up reply actions
I think the comparison you're looking for is this:
He plays like Steve Cherry but he gets David Thomas minutes.
by Chitown Spartan on Nov 16, 2011 3:28 PM CST up reply actions
I would say Ishbia, but either one works really
+1
"It's a trap!"
by AdmiralAkbar on Nov 16, 2011 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
HAHA you're both right
And, I was way wrong – I went back & looked up DT’s numbers on StatSheets, and look what I found:
Season GP MPG PPG FG% 3FG% FT% APG RPG BPG SPG
2000-01 33 22.4 5.4 . 49.3% 16.7% 90.3% 1.9 4.7 0.5 1.1
I was WAY off. If Thornton can put up over 5 pts, close to 5 boards, and shoot almost 50% from the field, I’ll start up his fanclub. I guess maybe Delco Rowley is a better compaison? Rashi didn’t do anything, either, but was here only two seasons.
Last year we didn't have anyone who could fill those minutes.
Between injuries and other sorts of attrition it was pretty much “play Thornton or wear out everybody else”. I think he’ll see much less playing time as the freshman get adjusted.
I've got this terrible pain in all the diodes down my left-hand side.
Bradley-Terry rankings for college football and basketball: because there aren't enough computer rankings already.
Truth
However, the problem is that for large stretches of the games (eg. when we weren’t taking extended dumps right on the court) we were legitimately outplaying the #1 and #6 teams in the country. The first 10 minutes vs. UNC (and the first half vs. Duke) raised the bar for this team.
I understand all the points about rotations and minutes and Nix etc...
But if we just cut our turnovers down to average of 16-18 per game, and limit the fouls to about 70% of what they have been. Those two items alone would have won us Tuesday nights game and made for a heck of an inaugeral Carrier Classic if you ask me….improving our shooting I think will come as the season progresses and only add to the effectiveness of the offense, I give these guys credit for at least trying to pass, that is more than we saw last year.
Nix being Nix,
He had a solid outing vs UNC and a poor game vs Duke, that’s what you get with Nix. Just like last year, he will be up & down with his performance. Instability throughout his life follows him onto the court. ie: last year’s Maui trip ? Somewhat his fault, but largely Izzo is to blame. Izzo constantly wants to create controversy between his players because in his twisted mind it somehow make them tougher through anger and they’ll play harder. Not all players respond to it which is what happened with Durell, Kalin, Nix, Sherman last year and Raymar the years before that. Sherman had great ability to score in a variety of ways around the bucket (70%FG last year) but was under utilized. His abscence is a big loss since Delvon isn’t playing. AT is a MAC talent at best, he has no business playing in the Big10. Draymond is a good, solid, fundamental player but just doesn’t have the “it” factor needed to lead a team to greatness. Every team needs a day-day (great passer, strong rebounder, court sense, unselfish, decent defender, plays hard) but he’s not the superstar that Izzo thinks he is. Dawson seems to exhibit the star qualities, we’ll see.
I dont think Izzo creates controversy intentionally
Rather, he gets on the ass of his truly talented players. Have you seen him going after Dawson? It’s because he knows that they aren’t meeting their full potential. He uses the same method of negative and positive reinforcement that most coaches do, but I don’t think he intentionally messes with players heads just to make them angry.
Gotta be careful with that
Can’t allow Green to make mistake after mistake on both ends yet play the whole game while the young talent gets yanked for giving up a basket.
I know he’s trying to get Dawson to realize his full potential and be a complete player.
But after just 2 games it’s clear that nothing good happens with Dawson on the bench.
"Brick killed a guy! Did you throw a trident?"
Nix
Nix is getting a lot of heat, but sometimes you just don’t have a good game. The guy has made obvious strides in aggressiveness and conditioning which are huge improvements from where he was last year. Temper your expectations of him and everything will be fine. Just because he lost 30 lbs and looks like Jarod Sullinger doesn’t mean that he is Sullinger.
Speaking as someone who is fat, mecurial and only marginally talented,
I wish I was a foot taller so people would tolerate me.
Sorry, mercurial
Spelling is actually my only awesome thing.
Fat
Not sure if you’ve missed games this year or what, but Nix is down to like 15% body fat which makes it a stretch to call him fat. Also, the “I could do that argument if I were, taller/faster/bigger etc.” is not only arrogant, but it’s hyperbole that isn’t funny nor original.
Let me help you out. No you couldn’t. You are not as talented as Nix. Even if you were 6’9 270 lbs. you wouldn’t be as talented.
Nix has ability
There’s plenty of 6’9" guys playing for low-level Div. 1 teams and teams below that. They’re there because they’re just big guys who don’t have, for example, the moves Nix has around the basket.
by witless chum on Nov 17, 2011 9:25 AM CST up reply actions
Agree with much of the analysis here...
With one important caveat. I’m psyched about this team because Izzo’s so psyched about this team. Remember how woebegone he was last year after we lost to these guys (wasn’t it with the same number of turnovers?)…he just seemed very different postgame this year. Upbeat and excited. I think he thinks he can mold this team into a monster. The ceiling may not be as high as some of his teams, but we all know what can happen when MSU starts to approach its potential as a team. They didn’t play together during that woeful stretch last night, but they will. I’m pretty excited about the potential of this team, too. Go Green!
by spartanjed on Nov 17, 2011 12:00 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
The ceiling of this team is the highest of all
Izzo only has two seniors and one junior really when you think about it (I don’t count Thornton). The rest of the team is being shaped for an insanely good run over the next couple years. When Appling is a senior this will still be the same team in a sense. I think we’re about to see a sustained run of success unseen in years before under Izzo in that I don’t see any down years coming if recruiting shakes out as expected.
One senior if not counting thorton.
Just green. Delvon and Lucious were his classmates. Also – this current team would be great if they had lucious and a healthy delvon :)
That's interesting
We’d be looking at another great year with those two on the team. A healthy Delvon is something we never saw, and Korie could really help out this PG situation. We’d be damn good, even with the development issues we’re seeing.
Keith could play the two more if Korie was here
But I think that Izzo cleaning house and getting rid of the bad attitudes is a huge key. If Korie was a senior leader would we really be as scrappy and passionate as we’ve seen so far? Doubtful to be honest.
THINK FUTURE...Harris
I haven’t read all the post but we need to realize who is coming in next year when we talk about our current PG situation. In my opinion, Appling will grow into a GREAT point guard. Are we going to move him into the 2-spot? Then what the hell do we do next year when Gary Harris comes?I’m sure Izzo has thought about this. Trice is good but we need to realize Appling is an elite defender and needs to grow into a PG. Running the point at State is much different than other programs. It takes time, unless you have played PG your whole life like Kalin, Mateen, etc… Appling will have a good 5 game stretch here to find his way. Starting against UNC and Duke isn’t easy considering the defensive pressure they put on teams. Just please be patient and realize Trice is good but still need to be a backup/.
by KansasCitySpartan on Nov 17, 2011 9:41 AM CST reply actions
interesting
You make good points, though, think about it from Herb Brook’s perspective. Don’t try and pick the 5 best players to start. Try and find the best team of 5. I’m not sure the Trice isn’t a better option with Harris and Dawson on the wings. Appling comes off the bench as the Vinny Johnson type guy. Might be tough for him to hear, but there is a distinct possibility that we are a better team with that lineup. I don’t know, and I won’t’ know until Izzo says one way or the other. Would be a nice option to have Appling coming in for the 1/2 and Byrd coming in for the 2/3 though. Makes us very flexible as far as lineups go. Costello Kaminsky/Guana Byrd Daweson and Appling could really stretch a Zone, not to mention giving us some length on defense.
I disagree one hundred percent
Appling will NOT come off the bench next year. Gary Harris will. I think we will see extended stretches of Trice at the one with the lineup you just said. I also think we’ll see Valentine and/or Kearney handling the one.
Honestly when it comes to development, I think that if Kearney ends up physically ready he will be an incredible point guard with his ability to pass and distribute. The line up of Kearney, Appling, Dawson, Payne and Costello will be a monster in 2013. One thing of interest is that Kearney and Valentine may interfere with eachothers minutes since they are the same size, and for the most part have very similar strengths.
So basically what we can take from this year is a hint at whats to come, I wonder how Gauna and Byrd will fit in with all the talent coming in, especially Gauna once Costello, Kaminski, and hopefully Jabari Parker and Jahlil Okafor arrive.
BK at the point?
I’m not sure about that, it seems like he’s built to be a wing.
Howeva, I’m pretty pumped to see Denzel on campus next season. Like Trice, he’s the son of a coach who is supposed to have an extremely high basketball IQ, and from all the clips I’ve seen of him, he is a magician with the ball. IMO, on the court smarts + great ball handling ability = the man to run your team.
Oh, and he’s tall & long – when is the last time this team had someone over about 6’3 running the point – Chris Hill??
His early scouting reports had him as a PG
Obviousy he’s grown, but you can still be tall and long and be a PG (Ahem, Magic Johnson). And while Valentine will excel I think there’s just too much of a jam at the wing next year. There’s just no way I see him getting significant PT over Appling, Dawson, Trice, Kearney, Byrd and then Harris. It makes sense to wait him a year, especially if Keith and Kearney develop as ones (Izzo has also stated that Kearney will see some time there most likely).
And in Kearney’s favor, in high school he was an incredible distributor and he has the ability to get to the basket, as well as an insanely solid handle. He and Valentine are astoundingly similar players IMO.
I see what you're saying
but I just think that as a team, having a guy that can come in and play the 1 or 2 is better than having a guy that can come in and play only one of those positions. Appling is without a doubt a better player than Trice, but Trice is a more natural pg and I think will always be a better pg than appling. So having that versatility come off the bench might be better for the team. It’s not like we haven’t seen this before. Green coming off the bench, KT coming off the bench, Mo Pete coming off the bench, Chris Hill coming off the bench… sometimes its just the way it shakes out. If Harris could play the point, I would completely agree with you, but I don’t see that happening. Today Izzo said Dawson could play some 4 if need be. He’s not really the ideal size for that position, but against smaller teams that could be something. Payne Dawson Harris Appling Trice. Real small, but wow athletic. I’m not predicting Appling to come off the bench. I just think it has to be looked at as a possibility if Trice continues to prove that he’s the PG that can move this squad.
I also see what your're saying
But I’d like to point out that Green, Mo Pete and Torbert were all forwards. Hill only came off the bench because he had an awful senior year and Neitzel earned his slot. I just don’t see Izzo benching Keith simply because I think it would A.) Upset him, seeing how he’s supposed to be our star this year and B.) Seniority tends to rule in Izzo’s lineup. Actually, no, Izzo does an excellent job of doling out PT to those who earn it and at this point he’s earned it and the only way I can see him losing his spot is due to injury or attitude (lets pray neither happen).
Plus
I agree that we will maybe see Trice start, but in that case I don’t see Harris starting above Dawson or Appling.
re Appling as point
I 100% agree. Appling needs to be the point as a starter. I think he will be fine once he gets his feet under him and Izzo installs more of the offense. Frankly, Duke did a terrific job of disrupting our offense—they were constantly pressuring our guys off the ball (look at the deny work that Mason Plumlee did on Draymond in the first half). Our real issue is that our cuts haven’t been effective—all of our cuts to the wing and our cutters along the basseline haven’t been nearly crisp enough to create any separation in order to maintain the timing of the sets (this is also evidenced by the number of times we have had guys step into passing lanes and pick off passes, or even just make the passer, usually from the top of the key, hesitate before making a pass). once the cuts get a little crisper keith will be fine— remember he is also a 1st year starter at the point, it is not easy to get everything right immediately especially against such pressure intense teams as we have faced.
re our post play—- I think (amazingly) Bilas actually made the perfect point— our guys are getting position on the block about 3 feet too close to the baseline. so that when they make their moves they end up too far under the basket/backboard. This is problematic for lay-ups (seriously) because it means that you have to jump backwards to create a good angle to use the glass. when you are a bit farther away it allows you to use your shoulder and body to protect the ball while you locate the proper shooting angle. furthermore, when playing against long athletic guys if you don’t have that space to create a good angle then you basically have to throw it straight up. when you are close in like that you want a lower tragectory to utilize the backboard and diminish the effect of any innacuracy (when the ball is coming from straight up in the air and it hits the rim it will miss—when it comes in from a shallower angle it has a greater chance to hit the rim again, and go in… it is math or geometry or something…). i love the footwork of both nix and payne it is really just their one-handed-shooting-mechanics that are letting them down at this point. either go up and dunk it or work on that baby hook. also they need to be better about locating and jumping into the bodies of the guys they back down. when they got under the basket in these two games they would literally forget to jump into the shot blocker’s body…
by TilltheBitterEnd on Nov 17, 2011 12:47 PM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't say it's amazing that Bilas noted that
He’s one of the best analysts out there.
by TheCrestedHelm on Nov 18, 2011 9:59 AM CST up reply actions
+1
Bilas is excellent and level headed. I wish he and Bob Knight could do all of our games. I love how Bob Knight just talks basketball the whole time and nothing else, it’s very refreshing IMO.
Coach Knight goes...
…a bit overboard as far as ignoring the actual action to make a point about strategy, but it’s great to listen to someone who knows more about basketball coaching than almost anyone.
by witless chum on Nov 18, 2011 10:34 AM CST up reply actions
I agree
but he points out things that most analysts, even former coaches, completely miss and it really enhances the experience. He thinks like a coach at all times, he’s not trying to entertain the audience, he’s informing them. Bill Raftery, I love him, but he could take a note from Knight.
I love Bilas
I was more saying that it was amazingly incisive his comment… ie how has no one else pointed this out before. I dig Bilas and think he is really good. I have noticed this problem before with some of our guys, and just find it curious that they haven’t made this point in film study, or if they have that our guys don’t act on it…
by TilltheBitterEnd on Nov 18, 2011 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
I suspect
That our deep positioning against Duke may have been an effort to avoid charges.
Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude
The hard part to comprehend....
Is that with Harris and Costello coming in, you may actually see playing time for several players decrease even though they improve. Trice primarily, Kearneys minutes may disappear unless his body develops quickly, and Gauna may not get the minutes he is currently getting with Costello and Kaminski both able to play rotation minutes fairly quickly next year…why? Because we need shooters on the floor.
This
is correct. I think that another player impacted in minutes will be Denzel Valentine. What PT really is going to depend on is who is the best point guard. At this point its Appling and Trice. I think next year we will see Appling, Trice, Kearney and Valentine competing for minutes at the one. Valentine should redshirt honestly, save him so you have his point skills for two years after Kearney and Trice graduate. Then you see him competing with Tyus Jones hopefully.
Of all of the three I’m expecting to play at the 1 next year we’ll need Appling to develop well as a PG because if he’s at the two that’s cutting minutes for all the wings. If that happens I think that Kearney has much more upside than Trice, but Trice just has a better grip on the game right now. If Kearney ends up as an effective one who can play 20 minutes at the point max I’ll be stoked.
And is it just me, or does it seem like Thornton is getting a ton more minutes than
originally anticipated???
I think this is a combination of things
Him being a senior that Izzo seems to trust to be out there and not screw up definitely helps, but i think his minutes are high right now because he knows the system and doesn’t do anything terrible. My feeling is that his minutes will decrease as Byrd and (if he’s not redshirting) Kearney start to learn the system better and our situation at point gets a little more settled in. The wing spots are very hard to pin down this early with this much inexperience, and experience in our system is the one thing AT has over the others.
Plus Dawson tweaked his knee
I think part of AT’s playing time is because Dawson may be playing fewer minutes than anticipated. When we roll out our starting lineup, Dawson is basically a wing. If he can’t play major minutes because of injury then some of those are going to AT.
by TheCrestedHelm on Nov 18, 2011 10:02 AM CST up reply actions
From the twitter:
Izzo met with Byrd on Wednesday about situation. “It’s gonna take some time yet” and it’s harder that Byrd can’t do a lot of solo work.
Does anybody know what Rexrode meant by this? I’m really hoping that Byrd isn’t having a fit over lack of minutes. This team does NOT need another Brandon Cotton situation.
Pretty sure he was talking about his overall fitness
and readiness to play, and the fact that his game suffers when his shot isn’t dropping.
There have been no indications that Byrd is unhappy, other than the fact that he’s trying to get back in the groove after not playing basketball for 18 months.
OK thanks
I was worried he was barking about PT. And yeah, if his shot isn’t falling, I’m not sure what game he even has – his hype is Mr. Pure Shot & Drain the Triple (which this team sorely needs).
I guess it was a little bit of the old S.O.S. paranoia that tends to creep in this time of year – though it’s usually related to football, not hoops.
We are going to have to be patient on Byrd.
18 months is a long time to not play. He’s got a lot to learn.
Well he did log practice time last year didn't he?
I imagine he’ll be fully settled in by Big Ten season and we’ll see significant minutes by mid non-conference.
I listened to the comments
Byrd is still having pain and it was affecting his shooting during shootaround. Apparently he started to sulk because he wasn’t making shots. Coach Izzo referenced how Nix got down on himself after missing those layups. Byrd may be a guy that if he doesn’t make shots he gets down and doesn’t help in other areas.
It’s going to be a while before we get the full Byrd experience.
"Brick killed a guy! Did you throw a trident?"
Just want to say that I love what this thread has become
Tons of great points and ideas brought up by all, it’s been going on for days and every time I log in, I find 5 or 6 more relevant comments have been added. Threads like these are the reason I love this site, and a lot of the reason I love State basketball.
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