Retiring the Debate
"I remember going into the Breslin the first time, looking up to the rafters and seeing all the great guys who have been through Michigan State. To have my name mentioned with those guys is just a tremendous honor. It's something I'm definitely looking forward to and definitely will remember for the rest of my life." - Morris Peterson, 2009
By nearly every measure, Kalin Lucas had an outstanding career in Green and White. Lucas' teams won two Big Ten championships, advanced to two Final Fours, and produced the greatest run of sustained success for MSU since the glory years of Morris Peterson, Mateen Cleaves, Charlie Bell and company, from 1998 to 2001. Lucas himself was the Big Ten Player of the Year in 2008-09, was named first-team All-Big Ten twice and second team All-Big Ten once, and left East Lansing as one of only four players in MSU history to record 1,500 career points and 500 career assists.
There's little question that Lucas is one of the most accomplished players of the Tom Izzo era. But even when you're discussing great players, there's still room for debate: there's run-of-the-mill greatness, and then there's retire-your-number caliber greatness. Was Lucas' career sufficiently great that Michigan State should retire his number and raise his jersey to the Breslin Center rafters?
Many colleges have specific, defined criteria that a college basketball player must meet in order for the school to retire his jersey. The criteria vary widely: at North Carolina, you have to have been named the national player of the year; at Davidson, you must have earned a degree from the school; at Tennessee, NBA success and Olympic participation are factored into the equation. Michigan State does not have a formal litmus test or any specific requirement that it uses when weighing the merits of players who are considered for jersey retirement.
Retiring a player's number is perhaps the highest individual honor a program can bestow on a player. This is especially true at Michigan State, where Tom Izzo has frequently spoken in terms of "hanging banners" as a major program goal. Granted, Izzo is probably talking about Big Ten championships and Final Fours when he uses that phrase, and not to individual honors. Nonetheless, the eight retired-number banners hanging in the Breslin Center occupy an exalted place in MSU basketball history. Great teams achieve great things because of the contributions of great players, and MSU certainly has had more than its fair share of outstanding performers.
So far, nine players have been selected for this honor:
- Mateen Cleaves (#12, played from 1996 to 2000)
- Johnny Green (#24, played from 1956 to 1959)
- Earvin "Magic" Johnson (#33, played from 1977 to 1979)
- Greg Kelser (#32, played from 1975 to 1979)
- Morris Peterson (#42, played from 1995 to 2000)
- Scott Skiles (#4, played from 1982 to 1986)
- Steve Smith (#21, played from 1987 to 1991)
- Shawn Respert (#24, played from 1990 to 1995)
- Jay Vincent (#31, played from 1977 to 1981)
(Note that the Spartans have only eight retired numbers even though there are nine players. That is because Green and Respert both wore #24.)
All the players named above are generally regarded as all-time MSU greats. It is hard to construct a qualitative analysis based on legend status, though, so we'll look at a few other characteristics that many of the players share:
- Long-term individual statistical excellence. Every player whose number has been retired ranks in the all-time top 10 at Michigan State in either scoring, rebounding or assists. Michigan State's top five all-time leading scorers (Respert, Smith, Skiles, Kelser and Vincent) have had their numbers retired, and Peterson, who now ranks 12th, was in the top ten both when he completed his career and when his number was retired. Green is the school's second-ranked all-time rebounder, behind Kelser, and Cleaves is MSU's all-time assists leader. (Kalin Lucas completed his MSU career last season ranked sixth all-time in both scoring and assists.)
- Team success. Five of the nine players with retired numbers played on NCAA championship teams while at Michigan State. Lucas did not, though he did lead the Spartans to three consecutive Final Fours.
- Big Ten recognition. Greg Kelser and Jay Vincent are the only players with retired numbers who weren't named either Big Ten Player of the Year or honored with the Chicago Tribune's Silver Basketball award (a similar award given to the Big Ten's top player). All nine players were recognized at least once as first-team All-Big Ten performers. Lucas was the Big Ten's 2009 Player of the Year.
- National recognition. All nine players were named to the Associated Press All-America first, second or third team, an honor bestowed on only 15 MSU players in history. Lucas didn't make an AP All-America team, though he twice received honorable mention.
- NCAA Tournament recognition. Five of the players with retired numbers were named to an NCAA All-Tournament Team, an award bestowed on Lucas in 2009.
It would seem that NBA success is not a criterion for having your jersey retired at Michigan State. Honorees such as Magic Johnson, Steve Smith and Scott Skiles became NBA stars, but others, such as Mateen Cleaves, Shawn Respert and Greg Kelser, did not. Additionally, many of the Spartan greats who have enjoyed a lot of NBA success-players such as Jason Richardson, Zach Randolph, Kevin Willis and Eric Snow-haven't had their MSU jerseys retired.
An issue of scarcity
Eight retired numbers may not seem like a lot for a storied program such as Michigan State's, but that number represents one-fifth of the numbers that the NCAA allows teams to assign to players. NCAA rules limit the assignable jersey numbers to 37: numbers 1-5, 10-15, 20-25, 30-35, 40-45, and 50-55. The numbers 0 and 00 are also permitted.
So, scarcity may influence how many other Spartans-former, current and future -will be able to join the retired-number club. (Shawn Respert and Johnny Green, both of whom wore #24 for MSU, may have done their fellow Spartans a favor in this regard.)
Quantifying greatness
Michigan State may not have a formal system to determine whether a player deserves to have his number retired, but there would be benefits to establishing one. Doing so would help the program avoid the looming number crunch, give current players definite targets to reach in order to be immortalized in the Breslin rafters, and ensure that the honor is reserved for only the best of the best at Michigan State.
As discussed previously, many of the schools that use specified criteria for jersey retirements rely on subjective factors such as membership on all-conference and all-America teams, or recognition as conference or national player of the year by specific publications. Other schools even give consideration to players' post-college careers, which seems rather problematic. What about team success? Should extra consideration be given to players who played on championship teams? Finally, should a player's statistics and other more objective criteria be factored into the formula? And how stringent should those criteria be?
We can derive some guidance on this topic from statistical guru Bill James, who developed similar tests and descriptors for baseball that describe how likely (and to a lesser extent, how deserving) a player is to be selected for the National Baseball Hall of Fame. James' Hall of Fame Monitor takes into account nearly every impressive accomplishment a player could attain during his career. Its "Black Ink" test considers the number of times a player led the league in any of several important statistical categories during a season. The "Grey Ink" test takes a broader look at a player's excellence, and considers the number of times a player finished within the top 10 of the league in those same categories.
While James' tests emphasize statistical greatness, they can be used as a jumping-off point to devise a ranking system that uses both subjective and objective criteria. Statistics perhaps provide a strongly quantitative means to evaluate a player's greatness, but it's clear that major awards also do much to cement a player's legacy, and may even be more important than stats. In addition, team success should definitely matter at Michigan State in the Tom Izzo era, because Izzo's emphasis on team goals over individual accolades means that Spartan players should be judged on how successful they were in achieving those team goals, even though a player's team success owes substantially to the quality of the other players. Any number-retirement system at MSU must give special consideration to Big Ten championships and Final Four appearances, as well as NCAA titles.
With those concerns in mind, I propose the following framework for evaluating players' number-retirement candidacies:
- National Player of the Year: 10 points
- Big Ten Player of the Year: 7 points
- Associated Press First Team All-American: 7 points
- MSU all-time leader in points, rebounds or assists: 7 points
- Significant contributor to an NCAA championship team: 6 points
- MSU all-time top five in points, rebounds or assists: 5 points
- Significant contributor to a Big Ten championship team (regular season): 3 points
- Significant contributor to a Final Four team: 3 points
- Associated Press Second or Third Team All-American: 3 points
- All Big Ten First Team: 3 points
- All Big Ten Second or Third Team: 1 point
Note that players are not given credit in multiple categories for the same achievement. For instance, players who win a national championship are not given an additional three points for playing on a Final Four team. Similarly, players who are named Big Ten Player of the Year are not also given credit for All-Big Ten First Team honors.
(Click for full size.)
The honorees
The formula, if nothing else, eliminates all doubt that Mateen Cleaves is the greatest player in the history of Michigan State basketball. His 57 points on the scale are far and away the highest total of any player surveyed. The results also reveal how stunningly good Magic Johnson was at MSU. Despite only playing two seasons in Green and White, Magic checks in with the fourth-highest total of those whose numbers have been retired.
Of the players whose numbers are already retired, all but two earned more than 25 points on the scale. The two players who fall below that threshold, Scott Skiles and Jay Vincent, are arguably reasonable exceptions. Skiles' number was retired primarily because of his 1985-86 season-arguably the greatest individual season in MSU basketball history-in which he averaged 27.4 points and 6.5 assists per game, and was named Big Ten Player of the Year. Vincent's case is perhaps more tenuous, but he was a major cog in a national championship team, and had two outstanding seasons immediately following MSU's 1979 NCAA title.
Given that seven of the nine players whose numbers have been retired exceed the 25-point threshold, and the fact that the relative success of the Izzo era may mean that MSU will become more selective about retiring numbers, the 25-point mark seems an appropriate place to draw a line.
The contenders
I've gathered data for seven recent Spartan greats whose accomplishments perhaps merit consideration for jersey retirement. Three of them--Paul Davis, Raymar Morgan and Drew Neitzel--simply don't come close to 25 points in our proposed system. All were great players, but for a variety of reasons they simply do not stack up to the players whose numbers hang from the Breslin Center rafters.
Antonio Smith also falls well below the 25-point threshold, garnering only 17 points. However, if ever there was a player who deserved bonus points for his contribution to the program, Smith is surely the guy-he has defined the Tom Izzo archetype at Michigan State with his aggressive, hard-nosed defense and ferocious rebounding. Smith played on Izzo's first four teams and set the tone for Izzo's program. His 1,016 career rebounds trail only Johnny Green and Greg Kelser on MSU's all-time list, and he's one of the only Spartans ever to serve as captain during three different seasons. If Smith was one year younger (and thus had played on the 2000 title team), he would likely meet the 25-point threshold. As it stands, given his integral role in laying the foundation for future success, he'll never be forgotten by the Spartan faithful, even if his number isn't retired.
Jason Richardson comes close to reaching the 25-point mark, despite playing only two seasons at MSU. That's certainly a testament to how spectacular those two seasons were. Richardson's role increased throughout the 1999-2000 national championship season, to the point where he played 16 minutes and scored nine points in the NCAA title game against Florida. He followed up that effort with a truly stunning sophomore season, in which he was named second-team All-America and first-team All-Big Ten. Richardson left for the NBA after that season, and while the case of Magic Johnson (who also played just two seasons in East Lansing) demonstrates that a two-year stay isn't fatal to one's number-retirement chances, it makes the bar higher. Richardson's career wasn't spectacular enough to overcome his decision to forego his junior and senior seasons.
Perhaps the most interesting borderline case is that of Charlie Bell. Bell was unquestionably a great player at MSU, and his list of team accomplishments is unsurpassed by any player in program history: four Big Ten championships, three Final Fours, and a national championship. Largely owing to that team success, he checks in with 33 points, a number surpassed only by his backcourt partner on the 2000 NCAA title squad, Mateen Cleaves. But, while Bell was named first-team All-Big Ten in his senior year, his individual accomplishments aren't on par with those of the players whose jerseys have been retired.
NBA success shouldn't be factored into consideration, but in Bell's case, his long, productive NBA career is at least instructive: Bell's skills and contributions are substantial, but have been under-appreciated both in college and as a professional. He went undrafted after completing his career at Michigan State, and played several seasons overseas before finally cracking an NBA rotation-but has since proven to be a valuable, consistent pro. Perhaps his lack of individual accolades shouldn't be held against him, because his value is so evident in other ways.
If MSU decided to retire Charlie Bell's number, I wouldn't complain. But my verdict is to leave his #14 jersey in circulation.
Who's next
This brings us to the case of Kalin Lucas, who scores an impressive 28 points under the ratings system. He's one of only six players in program history to be named Big Ten Player of the Year, and the other five have their jerseys hanging from the rafters. He was the best player on a team which enjoyed the second-greatest period of sustained success in program history--three two straight Final Fours. He fought through serious injury during his senior season and nonetheless led a disappointing Michigan State team to rally and preserve MSU's streak of 14 consecutive NCAA Tournament appearances. He provided Spartan fans with a host of great memories, including his backbreaking three-point play to knock defending national champion Kansas out of the NCAA Tournament in 2008. Lucas' 1,996 career points make him fifth best in Spartan history, and his 558 career assists rank sixth.
The conclusion? Kalin Lucas' number belongs in the Breslin Center rafters.
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32?
Use your fingers and toes… 10-15 is six numbers, not 5.
Still think this is one of the dumbest rules in NCAA BBall.
Cheers,
Andy
Exactly
If NBA refs have figured out how to signal fouls for guys wearing numbers like 91 (Dennis Rodman), I think we’d survive.
"It was worth it. Every needle, every dose of medicine that I've taken. That's why you play the game. A chance to be on a Final Four team, a chance to win championships." Delvon Roe
by Ducking Delvon on Nov 9, 2011 7:46 AM CST up reply actions
Unfortunately...
Lucas and co did not go to 3 final fours as stated above. Nice article though.
Glad you wrote this
It seems like every preview I’ve read pretty much drags KL through the mud like last year’s problems were all his fault. It’s almost like they’re suggesting the team will be better off without him. He may not have been the best leader in the world but without KL that team would’ve been horrible. He was the offense on many nights and put the team on his back to keep the tourney streak alive all while recovering from major injury. This is how KL should be remembered, not as the poster child for bad chemistry/leadership.
"We Grind and yall try to stop it..." - Fruit
Uhhh, did you all forget how awful last year was?
Preseason unanimous # 2 only to barely squeak into the tournament and get dumped in the first round. Preseason Big Ten favorites that were swept by Michigan and finished .500 in the conference. Last year stunk. And while I agree that is not all on Lucas, he certainly needs to bear his share of the chemistry issues as the undeniable leader of that team.
In addition, if you are going to give such high marks to players that are significant contributors on successful teams, I think any fair ratings system would also have negative marks for players that were key cogs on unsuccessful teams.
The bottom line is I’ll remember KL as a great player who gave us a ton. His individual efforts were often a sight to behold, but when push came to shove and he was asked to step up as a team leader instead of just a scorer, the results were often mediocre. Does anyone remember what we were all saying about the 2009-10 team before they went on their tournament run. They were pretty frustrating too. Oh and by the way, to give KL credit for a final four run during which he played in 1 and a half games seems especially generous.
Re-reading this, I realize I come off a bit cruel.
If this was a list of great Spartan athletes, I’d be fine including KL. He was a warrior for us and without him we don’t have 2 Big Ten titles and at least 1 final four. Not to mention our tournament streak would’ve been broken and last year would’ve been a whole lot worse. I just think we are talking about a special honor here and something truly special is required. Injuries and a lack of leadership kept KL from ever reaching that truly special level… imho.
I'd say his contributions to the 2 final four teams...
….heavily outweigh his senior season (when he was playing on a bad foot).
"Everyone who drinks is not a poet. Maybe some of us drink because we're not poets." - Arthur Bach
I'd say it depends on what final total your looking for.
Yes his contributions to 2 final four teams outweigh a rough senior year. Of course they do. But do they outweigh them by enough to make him one of the 10 best players in MSU history? I say no.
too many
I never understood why there are so many retired jerseys in Breslin. The honor has been greatly diluted.
UCLA only has seven
NC has eight. It just seems that in the past 20 years, the honor has been diluted.
Based on current standards, he's in
This debate ultimately comes down to one question: is MSU going to raise the threshold for retiring a number or not? If the answer is no, then #1 is getting retired, because his resume stacks up as good or better than all the current retirees (honestly, being the #5 all-time leading scorer and #6 in assists is probably enough on its own, aside from the Final Fours, B10 champs, and POY/all-conference stuff). The only way it doesn’t get retired is if MSU makes a decision that the standards need to be raised or they’re done retiring numbers for a while.
"It was worth it. Every needle, every dose of medicine that I've taken. That's why you play the game. A chance to be on a Final Four team, a chance to win championships." Delvon Roe
I would like to see Charlie Bell's name up the rafters.
He deserves it.
Retired Numbers
I believe there are important features left out of your all too objective formula for retiring numbers. In addition to your objective factors, I believe it is important that a player who has his number retired should:
1. demonstrate leadership qualities that both fans and team-mates find admirable.
2. contribute to the cohesiveness of the teams he played on.
3. play up to his potential, giving his best effort every game.
4. enhance the reputation of Michigan State students, athletes and the school by his behavior following graduation.
5. make us all proud to see his name and number hanging from the rafters.
If not Mike Robinson, nyet to Lucas
The greatest scorer in MSU basketball isn’t in the rafters, because he played in a pre-TV era for unpublicized teams. Mike Robinson belongs.
The ones currently honored feel about right. Bell, Lucas, Smith, Neitzel were all good or very good players on successful teams, which doesn’t get you a banner in the real world. And Paul Davis? The only thing I’d raise is a weight-room photo of him crying on the bench with leg cramps while the team blew a lead against Wisconsin.
Yup, just ask Willis Reed
Banners mean you did something special, inspirational, rarefied. You want to give Paul Davis a perfect attendance award, I’m fine with it. At least he showed up for the first half of that game.
I don't want to give Paul Davis anything
But taking potshots at someone based on an injury situation in a single game provides absolutely no value to the conversation.
by KJ@theonlycolors on Nov 9, 2011 12:34 PM CST up reply actions
I loved watching KL
but when I have to pause to think about whether his number should be retired or not, then it probably shouldn’t be. He was a special player that never quite lived up to his potential. Mostly due to injuries. When someone’s number deserves being retired, it should be looked at as a silly question as to whether or not to raise it to the banners. No pausing, no questions, no qualifiers…..yes or no…..I think KL is a no.
What would you say his potential was?
Looks at the names surrounding his in the recruiting rankings. Who accomplished anywhere near as much as Lucas did among that group (or even among those at the top of the list)?
I think the more accurate narrative is that he hit his potential very early—Big Ten POTY as a sophomore—and then couldn’t push things any higher in terms of individual production.
I’m not saying he’s a slam dunk (although I’m on record in favor of retiring his jersey), but I also think some are holding him to an incredibly high standard. He accomplished as much individually as all but maybe 5 or 6 MSU players and experienced more team success than anyone who wasn’t on either the 1979 or 2000 teams.
by KJ@theonlycolors on Nov 9, 2011 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
All about timing
I look at it this way: if you play his sophomore, junior, and senior years in reverse, you get the following in order: (1) a great individual season following a tough injury, in a mediocre and tumultuous team year; (2) an all-conference individual season, conference co-championship, and Final 4 run that ended early (for him); and (3) a conference POTY season, outright conference championship, and National Championship game run highlighted by a very high level of play from KL in the Tourney. Would there be any question on retiring his number if his career played out that way and ended after the run to Ford Field? I doubt it.
"It was worth it. Every needle, every dose of medicine that I've taken. That's why you play the game. A chance to be on a Final Four team, a chance to win championships." Delvon Roe
by Ducking Delvon on Nov 9, 2011 3:41 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That's the best analysis I've seen
on the “pro” side of this debate.
And I think it also points to why a lot of people feel that PD was a failure at MSU – he came in playing at an exceedingly high level from the start, and only improved statistically by a marginal amount each season. But the lack of improvement doesn’t take away from the fact that he was an outstanding player while in EL.
Reminds me of Bill James technique
of keeping a pitcher’s career win total the same, but shuffling a few wins over four or five seasons. It’s amazing what a bit of reorganizing does to our judgments.
I second MSUDersh—this is a very good insight.
I think he deserves to have his number retired
in the context of other MSU players who have had their jersey’s retired. His stats and accomplishments measure up to everyone else on the list. I’d say he’s at least as deserving as Smith and Peterson and probably more deserving than Respert (and yes, I’m old enough to remember his heyday) and Skiles. However, MSU may be a little generous when it comes to retiring numbers if we have as many retired as places like UCLA and UNC.
We’ve got a fine program, and over the past decade and a half have been one of the best in the country, but there’s no-way you can say we’ve had as many top shelf players (measured solely by NCAA stats and accomplishments – not recruiting rankings or NBA careers) as UNC or UCLA (or Indiana or Kentucky for that matter). In retrospect maybe we should have not retired Skiles’s or Resperts jersey and given that honor to Lucas instead. Maybe that places too much emphasis on Championships and less on individual statistical achievement but Lucas did pretty well according to both measures, whereas Respert and Skiles came up somewhat short in the winning championships department.
I think if it has to be debated whether he deserves to have his # retired,
then it probably shouldn’t be. Call it the old smell test (or something along those lines), but if you hear a name & hardcore Spartan fans, like those who comment on here, don’t nearly universally say, “Yeah, retire his number, he’s a legend,” then no, don’t retire it. It shouldn’t take an attempt at an objective breakdown to justify whether his jersey should be in those rafters, and #1 taken out of circulation.
For any of the 9 others on there, I don’t think there would be much debate. Maybe Jay Vincent, bc his greatest team success came when Magic & GK were onboard. And maybe Scott Skiles, bc of his off the court actions both at MSU & afterwards.
One issue with the suggested criteria
They penalize older players who didn’t have freshman eligibility, way longer seasons or awards like Big Ten Player of the Year, which didn’t exist until 1985. I’m the resident Mike Robinson lobbyist, but Terry Furlow is in there too. Lack of team success during the MSU “Dark Ages” between Duffy and Magic has led to these guys slipping through the cracks, but I’m a history guy and like to see the old timers given fair consideration. (Not that there’s anything real at stake, of course.)
I say Lucas gets a banner.
Lucas is the fifth highest scorer in school history, just ahead of Jay Vincent. Only one other point guard in MSU history (Scott Skiles) scored more than 1750 and had at least 500 assists in his career. There are only three point guards in the top ten scorers in school history: Skiles, Sam Vincent, who played both the point and shooting guard positions, and Lucas, who also spent some time as a two-guard next to Korie Lucious.
I’d say the reason there are so many recent additions to the pantheon is we’re witnessing a golden age of MSU basketball, courtesy of Izzo. Who cares if we’ve got more individual banners than North Carolina? To the rafters with Kalin!

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