Mixed Signals: Ohio State 71, Michigan State 61
by LVS on Feb 16, 2011 10:39 AM CST
in Michigan State Spartans Basketball
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This game probably gets filed under the same general category as the loss at Cameron Indoor Stadium last December: good effort on the road against a superior opponent. This one hurts a bit more because it was a conference game, and MSU obviously needed this win more than we ever figured they would.
It also hurts because MSU was oh so very close to grabbing the momentum at several points throughout the game, but always seemed to be undone by 1) big shots from Ohio State (forgivable) or 2) turnovers and other bad mistakes (much less so). The Spartans did an outstanding job containing Jared Sullinger -- who had one of his worst games of the season tonight and yet still picked up 11 points -- but were done in by a virtuoso performance by William Buford, who looks and plays like an NBA regular. If anything, this game showed how good Ohio State can be and already is: their superstar had an off night and they barely missed a beat. True, they don't have much depth, but when each player in your rotation contributes so much, is a 9-man rotation really a necessity?
Anyway, the four factors clearly show the dichotomous nature of the game:
The graph looks much more like what we've grown accustomed to over the past few seasons than what we've seen lately from this team. For the second consecutive game, MSU shot the ball extremely well; 59.6% eFG against the #2 team in the country is excellent. Similarly, the rebounding figure is encouraging, as it was accomplished against a team featuring two of the best rebounders in the conference (Sullinger and Dallas Lauderdale) and without much of a contribution from Delvon Roe. Keith Appling was particularly creditable in this regard: his 2 offensive rebounds and 4 defensive rebounds represented an outstanding contribution on a night when MSU truly needed it.
Ah, yes, but the other two bars. The turnover rate was MSU's worst of the season -- even worse than the turnover-fest at Duke. It was particularly bad midway through the second half when Kalin Lucas seemed to tire and MSU didn't really have anyone that could spell him for a minute or two. Draymond Green also turned the ball over several times while attempting the perfect pass instead of completing the merely good. No one player was particularly awful, but add up several mediocre performances and you get a major team problem. Turnovers really haven't been MSU's downfall this season, but they were last night.
And yes, that free throw rate. Normally we don't spend much time criticizing officials, but when Tom Izzo comments about Ohio State getting to the free throw line "every fricking time," and MSU shot only 6 free throws all night, we probably need to comment. Yes, a 29-6 free throw disparity is absolutely absurd, particularly when MSU took nearly all its shots from inside the paint or in the near vicinity (MSU shot only 5 three-pointers all game), and all but 4 of OSU's 29 attempts were obtained in normal game play. (We exclude the one garbage time foul and the free throws on Green's techincal foul.) We knew that OSU has a reputation as a team that doesn't foul much, but you have to wonder if that reputation became a self-fulfilling prophecy last night. Also, this isn't necessarily related to the foul discrepancy, but while watching the broadcast last night it was impossible not to think that the Jim Burr was totally hamming it up for the camera. This is not a good thing, and Green's technical foul (deserved or not) wasn't surprising given that context. Please no more mike-ing of officials, ESPN.
Anyway. Player bullets after the jump.
- One of the recurring annoyances of the season has been hearing announcers say, "Kalin Lucas is back!" immediately after a good play, when his body of work suggests that he isn't back. Well, for me, the statement rang true for the first time this evening. The statistics (and needless to say, at TOC we're big believers in statistics) show that Lucas had merely an above-average game tonight: 14 points on 7-of-15 shooting, 5 assists, 3 turnovers. But, while watching the game I kept on thinking, "he's back!" Lucas hit jump shots, yes, but he also showed an ability and willingness to take the ball to the rack that we just haven't seen this year. It wasn't an overwhelming performance, but it was much more of the vintage Lucas than we've seen at any other time this season. (And most of it came while being defended by Aaron Craft, who did a tremendous job of denying Lucas the ball and forcing him to take off-balance shots.) Clearly an effort to build on.
- It was an up-and-down night for Keith Appling, who got the start. He scored on two truly beautiful fast breaks, and did a very nice job grabbing rebounds from his guard position -- 6 tonight. On the bad side: while he's been able to contain some of the conference's best guards this season, that obviously wasn't the case tonight with his efforts against William Buford. Appling had a difficult time getting around screens, and generally had a tough game on the defensive end of the court. Not that he's the first -- nor will he be the last -- to have a difficult time against this Ohio State backcourt.
- Draymond Green fouled out after picking up several fouls in succession, including a frustration technical, at the end of the game. His performance before that point was generally good, though his attempts to make the perfect interior pass led to four turnovers. (In fairness, it also led to a few easy layups, including one particularly pretty set-up for Garrick Sherman.) He also struggled to get the ball in good shooting positions, The heaved 3-pointer was nice (though another 3 attempt, when MSU had numbers on the offensive end, was quite ill-advised) and he was a big reason why MSU was able to outpace OSU on the boards, but you can't imagine that Day-Day is going to look back on this game with fondness.
- Garrick Sherman gave MSU 17 solid minutes tonight: 3-for-3 from the field, 2 rebounds, 1 assist, and wasn't visibly abused on the defensive end of the floor. The two turnovers aren't ideal, but Garrick's performance has to be considered a positive development.
- Durrell Summers has taken, and will take, plenty of criticism elsewhere for his showing tonight. It hardly seems fair to pile on, so we'll refrain from doing so. Two fouls took him out of the game tonight before he could even get started. Here's hoping for a better game on Saturday.
- Derrick Nix was a revelation in the first half, but barely saw the floor in the second half after picking up his third foul. I think it's legitimate to wonder why Nix and Adreian Payne weren't given more minutes in the second half, when they, as much as anyone else, were responsible for MSU's fine first half showing. Nix played excellent defense on Jared Sullinger, made the best offensive play we've seen him make in a MSU uniform, and hit the one free throw he attempted. Nix has quietly been improving throughout this season; if he plays this well in the remaining 5 games, MSU is an NCAA Tournament team.
- Payne was similarly excellent in the first half; it was clear that he was fired up to play against his home-state team. He contributed 10 points in 11 minutes, played well on defense, and it looked like this was set to be his breakout game . . . and then, like Nix, he barely played in the second half. I understand that MSU was getting killed by Buford, Lighty, and (to a lesser extent at the time) Diebler, but it was disappointing that Izzo seemed to go away from the two players who seemed to be having the most success. This is particularly true with Payne, because he finished with only two fouls.
- We probably saw Mike Kebler's ceiling tonight. He had 8 points (surely his career high) on 4-6 shooting. Two of those baskets were particularly memorable: a sweet jumper from the baseline and a tremendous rebound/putback of a teammate's miss. He committed only one turnover, grabbed four boards, and to be honest, played well above the level we had come to expect from Korie Lucious.
- Austin Thornton wasn't nearly as good; his 19 minutes were punctuated by a couple of poor turnovers and one "if only" moment: a missed open jumper from the baseline that could have given MSU the lead at halftime. Not a ton to complain about but not much to write home about, either.
- Delvon Roe bravely gave MSU 8 minutes tonight; he grabbed 2 rebounds during those minutes, but he clearly wasn't himself. (After the game, Izzo said that Roe's pain level was 15 on a scale from 1 to 10.) Good on him for giving it a go; hopefully he'll be in better shape on Saturday.
And, about Saturday: SB Nation's latest bracketology report has MSU as the very last team in the tournament (and placed in a delicious first-round opener against Butler, to boot), so Saturday's game against Illinois seems like a must-win in order for MSU's tournament hopes to stay alive. Tom Izzo says that the team "ain't dead yet," and we'll know quite a bit more about the accuracy of that statement in a few days. Prepare for much anxiety until Selection Sunday.
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In all fairness...
a number of those turnovers were due to awful officiating. Craft was fouling the ever living crap out of Lucas all game long and was never called for all the hand checking, hip checking, and shoving he was doing. Similarly – in the 2nd half when MSU was feeding the post the bigs had some turnovers as a result of being hacked at pretty badly. What should have resulted in free throws instead resulted in no-calls + turnovers.
They did have a number of ill-advised passes to the post, and a couple lazy passes along the perimeter that got picked off — but they were far better than that 30+ % turnover percentage suggest.
+1
There were some bad turnovers, but this game was handed to OSU by the zebras. On the last 5 possessions where MSU played real defense, we got called for 6 fouls (including the tech). They shot 12 free throws in that three minute time span going from a 5 point lead to a 12 point lead. The refs let the buckeyes put this game away at the line.
OSU’s last field goal of the game was at the 5:51 mark. After the ensuing free throw (it was a 3-point play of course) they were up by 8. From there on out they outscored us 10-8 to end the game despite not taking another shot.
Green't Tech
This was a pet-peeve of mine at the game. Say what you will about the other 38 fouls called on MSU, the one that got Day Day T-ed up was a clear bump on the baseline. Green threw his hip into the guy. I don’t know what he was upset about.
Funnier moment, though, shortly before that happened, Craft was playing some tight D on a Lucas as he got the ball in-bounds. Craft eventually backed off and headed up court. Lucas, in frustration and for the benefit of the ref, pounded his dribble into the floor. It was a rather expressive moment.
"And how much are intangibles worth? 10%? 20%?" - kj@theonlycolors
by intrpdtrvlr on Feb 16, 2011 12:45 PM CST up reply actions
Also re: Green's tech
Bad time for an official to make that call, but, as other have pointed out previously, Green kind of had one of those coming the way he reacts to almost every foul call against him.
Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!
by KJ@theonlycolors on Feb 16, 2011 1:11 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah the tech was deserved, as was the foul before it.
I certainly understand his frustration with the refs though by that point.
Not to mention
That Green committed the original foul with 2 seconds left on the shot clock, bailing them out of what would have at the very least been a rushed shot at the buzzer.
"You can look at the dinosaur that weighs you down or you can look at the big pot of gold (and) try to say, 'You know what? I'm going to try to live up to expectations.' " -Tom Izzo, Iron Mountain Philosopher
by Ducking Delvon on Feb 16, 2011 1:50 PM CST up reply actions
That's exactly what I said to Con-T when it happened.
He’s had it coming.
Being up in the rafters, I didn’t really have much to judge whether the tech was warranted but even from up there I could see that it was clearly a foul.
"And how much are intangibles worth? 10%? 20%?" - kj@theonlycolors
Don't know if you guys have been over to 11 Warriors or not but...
They have a poll up on the officiating from the game. Can’t decide if this is a particularly bad example of bias, or just sports fans standing with their team no matter what. Either way its pretty ridiculous to assume that the team that shot 23 more free throws got the short end of the reffing stick.
Sit Summers
Bring him off the bench. Start big….Payne, Roe (if healthy), Green, Lucas, Appling.
LVS is right on, we had that combo moving all first half and Izzo goes away from it after the half.
The void of Lucious is gaping when Summers puts up a damn goosegg.
I want to say first I thought we played great (not perfect but…) last night. Really proud of how hard they played, how lots of players stepped up and how they looked like a team last night. Maybe I’m “spoiled” but I normally never find anything good in L’s but I actually felt fine after I turned off the TV last night. I was proud of my team, even with the loss.
Now, Summers.
I actually think it’s completely fair to criticize his performance if you’re doing a recap of the game. He started the game and contributed absolutely nothing last night. If you don’t want to get into the issue of effort (or lack of effort) that some people (including me) might want to claim they saw from Durrell last night, that’s fine and given we’re talking about 18-21 year old kids I don’t have a problem with that. But you can’t get a big zero from a starter, one who averages double digits in points, and expect to win tough games on the road. He didn’t score, had one board and one assist and the two guys he helped check had big nights. Not good enough and his lack of production is really a big problem b/c our only other option is AT getting serious minutes, which is definitely not going to help us win the big games we have left on our schedule.
We can’t win with that sort of production from a senior starter. It’s too bad b/c that game was there for the taking, even with the monster home court advantage they got from the clowns in stripes.
Its really too bad AT can't hit a wide open jump shot.
He is a good enough rebounder and while not a great defender you’d be hard pressed to convince me he is a step down from Durrell. If he could knock down an open 18 footer I’d say give him the minutes.
I agree with you on Summers
It’s just that everyone is saying that stuff everywhere else. I thought it would be tedious and unnecessary to repeat it.
PP-TPW.
The Only Colors
he
genuinely looked sat at the end of the game. teary eyed. feel bad for him at this point. something is just not right.
Worried
I’ve been a huge Summers fan since his freshman year — he has probably been my favorite Spartan over that time. But his recent performance and on-court demeanor are… troubling. This seems to be more than just a slump, or loss of confidence, or the dreaded “lack of heart.”
I wonder if he’s sick (remember when Raymar Morgan had mono?), distracted by non-basketball issues (ailing family members, girlfriend problems, etc.), or is perhaps suffering from clinical depression. There are other more sinister possibilities that I don’t even want to mention.
Like tbone521 said, he just doesn’t look “right,” and I’m worried about him even beyond his contributions to MSU basketball.
Also, regarding "tonight" references in the post
90% of this post was written last night, and then I got sick of waiting up for StatSheet to post tempo-free stats from the game. So, it was finished and posted this morning. Nonetheless, “tonight” means last night, obviously.
PP-TPW.
The Only Colors
My three cents...
1.) I like that you’re not blaming the refs- it’s a cop out. However, it is fair to say that a 29-6 free throw advantage when the team with the ‘6’ was going inside a lot, is not something that you ever see. There was definitely something strange going on, but we’ll leave it at that.
2.) Not going to win too many games when you turn the ball over 19 times and the other team turns it over 7 times.
3.) It’s pointless to pile it on Summers. The kid doesn’t respond to anything. He either decides he wants to play or he doesn’t. It’s been this way for four years. It’s not going to change. And this is going to sound like a dig, but really, I’m just making an observation- he is literally one of the (if not the) most mentally unstable athlete, performance wise, that I have ever seen. The way he gains and loses confidence is like a roller coaster.
by spartysoccer16 on Feb 16, 2011 11:13 AM CST reply actions
Summers
Pointing out that our starting SF contributed nothing production wise in a close loss is not “piling it on”. It’s acknowledging that what happened, happened.
I think Summers just gave Izzo and out to start someone else. Obviously Summers has been benched before for lack of effort or whatever, but we honestly can’t start someone at the 3 spot who contributes nothing at all, like he has the past few weeks. I think Izzo should call him in the office and just tell him he can’t continue to start someone who scores zero points and doesn’t board. That he has no choice, he has to get someone in there who can put points on the board, or at least try to. At this point it’s not about effort, it’s about production.
I agree that probably nothing will work with him but maybe he’ll be a little more aggressive and actually put some points on the board if explicitly called out on something tangible like points or boards. Continuing to just keep starting him in the hope he’ll do something is not something we can afford to do anymore.
I agree...
that pointing it out is not piling it on. I was just saying kind of along both our points that whether you pile it on or not, it doesn’t seem to matter to him. The way he approaches the game phsychologically is mind boggling. In all honesty, I think it’d be silly to say he doesn’t care, I really think he does. I just don’t think he knows how to prepare himself mentally for a game or maintain a healthy outlook on a game while he’s playing it. I mean, it’s soemthing all elite athletes struggle with, but it really affects him more than anyone I’ve ever seen before. We’re going to need to bring in Sigmund Freud to figure it out.
Joking aside though, the only thing I can immediately think of to put some life back into him is Kalin just pulling him aside and letting him have it. Hard to do that to your best friend and roommate. On the other hand though, I’d have to think it’s also pretty compelling stuff to hear coming from your soft spoken best friend and roommate.
Then again, I could just totally be off base completely and he just needs to figure himself out. I sincerely, and truly hope he does. It’s not looking optimistic obviously, but I really hope he does.
by spartysoccer16 on Feb 16, 2011 11:55 AM CST up reply actions
Got it
I guess that’s where I’m going with this too. As long as we continue to start him and say things like “we need 3 players to play together, not just 2”, or whatever Izzo said post-game, we’re counting on Summers and, I’m afraid, we’re going to be disappointed. At this point, given his production, I’d rather we treat him like we do AT, he’s our 7-8th guy and anything we get from him is gravy at this point. He’s producing like he’s a bench player, maybe that’s what he is.
Last night we counted on him, we didn’t get what we expected so we’re forced to re-hash his failures the next day if we’re being honest with ourselves regarding what happened. That pressure probably doesn’t do him any good either at this point.
You make sense.
He’s really pushed it to a point where you have to sit him and play other people. I thought that point happened about five games ago, but I’m certainly no Tom Izzo. It does seem like Izzo keeps thinking that the Summers of old is going to show up any minutes- but the truth is, I don’t think the Summers of March 2010 is going to be walking through those doors any time soon. Then again, we’re talking about the guy who went from literally one of the worst players in the Big Ten one week last year during the Big Ten tournament, to being arguably one of the top five players in the country a week later during the tournament.
The other half of the equation is you’re giving other guys more time. Nix and Payne’s confidence level seems to only be going up and I would say Sherman is right behind them. I understand they aren’t sharing that much time anyway since they are different positions, but at some point you just got to go bigger (in our case) or smaller based on who is playing the best.
And on another note, with playing those guys more- I loved how much we were going inside. I’m so sick of us taking and missing three’s I’m about to throw up. I loved that we were able to bang some point out inside.
by spartysoccer16 on Feb 16, 2011 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Summers...
I can handle guys having a bad night, but his lack of effort last night was onerous.
The one play where Sherman (I think) saved a ball under the basket and kicked it out to halfcourt, Summers just stood there and watched the ball go by rolling towards OSU’s basket. I almost had a damned aneurysm I was so mad.
I backed up and replayed it for my daughter (who is a budding hoopster) and told her that is what a lack of hustle looks like. I told her if I ever saw her stand around on a play like that, she would sit the bench the rest of the game.
I don’t know what the hell is wrong with Durrell, but he needs to get his shit straight NOW, or he’s gonna have lots of fun playing for the South Vladivostok Reindeer next season.
Nope. Never happened.
Payne and Nix
I usually don’t question substitution patterns and Sherman played well in the second half, but I have no idea why Payne and Nix weren’t out there for most of the half. If a young player is having a career night (and both of them seemed to be heading in that direction, with Payne possibly there already), then you have to give them minutes to either keep at that high level or come down a few notches.
Amen
Especially when Izzo comments about lack of effort getting to loose balls, and those two were playing with a lot of heart.
It’s not like we were doing anything from the outside. didn’t make sense.
Precisley
I imagine Nix’s conditioning (though he is noticeably slimmer than last season) is still a factor, but Payne should have been playing til he couldn’t run anymore. I understand playing these guys won’t work with every match up, but I loved it tonight. As LVS mentioned, even Sherman played well. There has to be a way to work these 3 into the game more often. I’d also love to see only 5-8 three-pointers a game the rest of the way, but thats another story.
+1 on the 3 pointers
it was great to see only 5 taken, and 2 made. we are clearly a better team when we run plays to get the ball into the post.
Couldn't play 2 of them together...
with Ohio State playing 4 guards. Would have seen even more layups.
OSU went to 4 guards.
We were behind, so Izzo had to counterpunch. He left Sherm in there because the hi-low was working some, and we needed points with Summers MIA.
It was a judgment call. Only one of the bigs could play at a time, or we would have been subject to massive defensive issues.
It sucks, but when you’re behind two or three possessions (not to mention fighting an enormous officiating inequity), it’s difficult to dictate the matchups.
Definitely
I’ve really liked Nix’s play in the big ten this season, he’s the low-post presence we’ve been missing for a long time. And I am extremely excited about the years to come after watching him and Payne play last night. Appling-Byrd-Dawson-Payne-Nix anyone?
You should always question MSU substitution patterns
They have never made sense and will continue to not make sense in the future.
+1
I’ve said it multiple times — Montgomery has been a enormous fail. His substitutions have killed MSU’s momentum during games all season long.
Montgomery's responsibilities
It’s a debate on this message board on who really bears the responsibilities for substitutions. It seems like people like to point out that Montgomery controls the substitutions when things fail and when things are going well, they say that Izzo ultimately is in charge and doesn’t let Montgomery put anyone in the game that he doesn’t want.
My take is that Izzo ultimately agrees with every single sub that is put on the floor. If he didn’t, he would pull them out of the game himself.
We may have lost anyway
so I won’t say the officiating cost us the game. I will say there is no way we could win given the officiating – maybe they didn’t actually cost us the game but they cost us any chance to win it. The most eggregious sequence that illustrates the general theme:
Sencond half, Lucas (I think) passes ball to Thornton on the left wing. Thornton catches the ball and doesn’t move. How do we know he didn’t move? Because he wasn’t called for a travel. Lucas then uses the stationary Thornton as a pick and Craft (I think, but it could have been Diebler) runs right into Thornton at full speed, causing Thornton to double over at the waist with Craft suspended on his back. And no foul is called, which is inexcusable because the refs generally pay attention to the player with the ball. Then Thornton passes to someone else and we get called ON THAT SAME POSSESSION for a ticky-tack off the ball foul.
Overall, we played well. There was spell midway through the second half when we got lazy on the perimeter with passing and they got a couple of easy turnovers. Also, I thought we were forcing the ball into the post when it wasn’t there too much in the second half. I agree that Nix and Payne should have seen more time. Sherman was OK but those two seemed to be playing even better than he was, and Payne wasn’t in foul trouble so there’s not much excuse for not putting him in there.
The other factor (other than the lazy/ill advised passes) that let OSU push the margin was having Roe was on the floor. I admire the kid for giving it a go but we could not afford to have him in there injured, because he was obviously incapable of playing effectively. It would have been better just to sit him out this game. He couldn’t check defensively and couldn’t offer anything on offense either. I don’t mean that as a criticism of him, but just an acknowledgement that if we put in a healthy Payne for those minutes OSU maybe doesn’t make the mini-run they did. Maybe they do anyway, but maybe not.
I thought Kebler played great. I was willing to give Summers a chance coming out of halftime but by a third of the way through the second half it was obvious that we were getting more from Kebler and Thornton than we were getting from Summers, and I was hoping Izzo would just sit him for the rest of the game. I’ve defended him this year and I can understand having an off night, but he just did not show any effort last night. You can’t score if you don’t shoot, and he wasn’t shooting last night for whatever reason.
Hopefully we’ve got some positives from this game going forward. For my money it looks like we should be going big a lot from here on out – all three guys that have played limited minutes in the front court looked perfectly fine out there last night and appear capable of playing regularly. Lucas was very good and looks like he’s finally approaching full health. I sometimes worry that Appling is hitting a freshman wall but we’re just going to have to play him because we don’t have enough help in the backcourt not to. Let’s hope we can get the Illini on Saturday – if we play like we did tonight and the officiating is more even I like our chances.
by TheCrestedHelm on Feb 16, 2011 11:51 AM CST reply actions
NIX
I think that dunk in the first half was the first that ive seen from him a spartan uniform!
Miking the officials
On the continuum of bad ideas, this one lies somewhere between the Titanic leaving port with half as many lifeboats as it could carry and New Coke. Let us hope it is quietly buried and never heard from again.
Forget the mic
What is needed is some sort of shock collar. Every time a terrible call is made, a painful shock is delivered to the offending official. That should improve the officiating.
Allow me to say this
If you think the idea of having Jim Burr with an open microphone is a bad idea, wait until they put one on Ed F. Hightower. Jim paid entirely too much attention to his airtime and no where enough attention to the game. I think he missed a great game and if he had been watching it could have been even better.
Summers
His lack of production was clearly a negative factor—and I agree with other commenters that there’s really no way to diagnose what the root problem is at this point. But I would note that his disappearance wasn’t quite as big a factor as it might have otherwise been, given that MSU actually excelled in both the areas Summers normally contributes in: FG shooting and defensive rebounding.
Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!
by KJ@theonlycolors on Feb 16, 2011 1:08 PM CST reply actions
Seriously?
His zero point game wasn’t that big a factor b/c we shot the ball well? Wow, don’t miss the forest for the trees. Digging thru the stats for some small silver lining doesn’t obscure the fact that we lost by 10 points and our starting SF, a guy who averages close to a .5 a minute, scored ZERO.
That’s a big deal since the object of the game is to score more than the other guys.
Seriously.
KJ wasn’t saying that Summers’ struggles had no effect; rather, that the rest of the team did a good job of picking up the slak in the areas in which he usually excels.
And, just as seriously, don’t treat every argument contrary to your point of view as a personal affront.
PP-TPW.
The Only Colors
"personal affront"
nicely done. assume my motives for wanting to disagree on a lazy Wednesday is due to some nefarious character flaw.
bush league move.
Disagreement
It’s hard to give someone the benefit of the doubt when they take your comment, skew the meaning, and then disagree with it—in a sarcastic manner, no less.
Somehow “was clearly a negative factor” and “wasn’t quite as big a factor” in my comment became “wasn’t that big of a factor” in yours.
What kind of move is that?
Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!
by KJ@theonlycolors on Feb 16, 2011 6:08 PM CST up reply actions
I really shouldn’t comment b/c to do so now after LVS’ great setup would “prove” i’m a thin skinned bully, or whatever he wanted to label me or my motives for commenting. But…
“wasn’t quite as big a factor”
“wasn’t that big a factor”
maybe you see that as trying to skew your views. I see them as maybe being a little sloppy but meaning pretty much the same things, but again, if not, hey, my bad. I do think you’re trying to mine the data to sugar coat Durrell’s big egg last night for some reason but maybe not or maybe you have a good reason. I’m not going to assume you’re a bad guy for doing it.
If I’m guilty of anything it’s commenting too many times (?!) on this blog today. For that I’m sorry.
End.
I do think you’re trying to mine the data to sugar coat Durrell’s big egg last night for some reason
Who’s assigning motives now?
To rephrase in a more blunt manner: Summers sucked last night. Completely. It cost the team. That cost was not quite as large as it might have if other players hadn’t made the plays they did.
Note that the phrase “not quite as large…” here does not equate to “not that large.”
Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!
by KJ@theonlycolors on Feb 16, 2011 8:54 PM CST up reply actions
On Summers
From my view as an armchair psychologist, I think Summers is suffering from the realization that his dreams of becoming an NBA player are shattered. He started off the season with high hopes and some good games, but his tailspin and the criticism he received on national TV have brought his to a point of despondency. No doubt he is rethinking his decision to return this year instead of cashing in his stock at the end of last season. While I’d love to see him pull it together for a stretch run, he may be too far gone to do so. I’m disappointed with his performance this year, but I’m able to easily move on and find pleasure in many other things. For Summers, this is his life and all the kings horses and all the kings men may not be able to put Durrell back together again. I feel bad for him, and kicking him when he is down isn’t going to make anything better. I’m going to wish the best for him and send him some positive vibes. It may be that he needs someone outside of basketball to help him get through this malaise.
by donaldo on Feb 16, 2011 1:27 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Maybe that's not his dream
If it is, it’s certainly not shattered.
If he shows up from here on out, he can play his way into the 2nd round. It’s possible.
I think his issues have less to do with basketball and more to do with having to grow up.[I’m obviously using the same armchair psychologist license]
In just a matter of weeks, basketball will no longer be an extra-curricular activity it or something else will have to be his job. I get the feeling he’s not ready for that. If he was, he’d have used the Robinson dunk as a draft ticket and been long gone. Maybe its not what he really wants to do.
Maybe it is but he’s getting negative pressure to hurry up and improve his draft stock from the likes of agents or wanna be agents hounding him through his family and that’s making it hard for him to play freely.
I read somewhere that he was crying after the game. Getting ready for real life under family pressure not to mention the microscope of televised athletics can be too much.
Or maybe his dog died yesterday.
Play 40!
Yeah, but he's a senior
How vivid are the memories on other Spartans kissing the S at Breslin the last game they play there? I literally have goose bumbs typing this up thinking about some of those days.
You would think that knowing his college, and perhaps his entire competitive basketball career was this close to ending, he would at least give 100% out there.
About dreams...
…the dreamers usually put forth a little effort to attain them. You don’t just wish it to be so.
Cruised over here from ATO to pay my respects to the Spartans. I thought Lucas and Green played well (not familiar with your team, I will probably stand corrected) and was pretty impressed with your FG%. I thought Izzo did a nice job with the pick & roll off the high screens and the back-door cuts; pretty damn annoying from my perspective, since they worked so well.
I also want to compliment Izzo, I think he’s one of the best, if not THE best coach inn the Conference. I noticed that as players rotated out of line-up, he’d take time to give them a “teaching moment”. Well done, in my mind.
Anyway, good luck with rest of your schedule, hope that you win out this year.
"I'm not a psychopath, Anderson, I'm a high-functioning sociopath. Do your research." - Sherlock Holmes
Kebler will keep it positive
I can’t dwell on the negative anymore. Kebler played great. I agree with seeing his ceiling last night. While I wish our team’s off the court drama didn’t demand that he play so much, I am greatful for his contributions to our team. He is a great utility point guard who plays good defense and generally makes good decisions.
Not Bad for 4 on 5
If I were to tell you that State was allowed to have only 4 players vs. the #3 team in the country last night, and played them tough, only to lose in the last few minutes of the game, you’d be happy right?
I hate to pile on to Summers because he’s been a good player for 3 years. We built him up to be a star (which is clearly NOT) after last March. That’s our fault and the media’s fault. Sorry – but I have to pile on, it’s cathartic.
I blame Izzo and don’t get me wrong I love Izzo more than just about anyone except his wife. But, you just CANNOT play a guy who is a negative that many minutes. Let’s face it – Durrell is a negative offensively. He takes low percentage 3 point shots and in most games doesn’t help on the offensive boards. He’s always been a negative defensively, having trouble reading and getting thru screens and generally being reactive on defense. So, when you compound this problem with not hustling, like he did last night, it’s way too much to overcome. There were at least 2x where he didn’t even hustle back to defend against turnovers (when he was the closest back). Guys – they teach you that in 3rd Grade. Really, that’s just inexcusable.
I will take it 1 step further having played lots of basketball in my time and having coached middle school basketball for 3 years. This demoralizes the WHOLE team. When you see 1 player not putting in effort in a blood and guts type game, it really peeves the other players.
The solution is simple. Summers comes off the bench. If he plays defense, has energy, crashes the offensive boards, he gets minutes. If not, Kebler is more than adequate to fill the void.
Also, even though the stat sheet looked good for Sherman last night, I think he was easily the #3 Center. Sherman seems to be able to only score uncontested layups. Those baskets should be credited to the passer not him. So, you take away the 3 baskets, and you have 2 rebounds in 17 minutes from your center?? No, that will not work.
Mo Peas of Kebler, Payne, Nix
Less Peas of Sherman, Thornton, Summers
I still feel like if we win vs. Illinois and Minnesota we are in and I think we can beat both.
GO GREEN! GO WHITE!
by greensincebirth on Feb 16, 2011 5:40 PM CST reply actions
I disagree.
We need to try and get Summers going in the first 5 plays of each game, football-style with scripted sets. Summers is a different player when he hits shots early.
We just don’t have the firepower, or even the bodies to leave him on the bench.
On Summers and Centers
There’s been a lot of talk about Summers on this site all year long, so I figured I’d throw my two cents in. This will probably be long and rambling, so feel free to skip to the next post if you so desire.
First off, I don’t think there’s really anything wrong with Durrell nor do I think he’s regressed or changed a whole lot. I think instead, that the current team and style of play simply doesn’t mesh well with his skill set:
1. 3 point shooting — If he’s open or comes off a ball screen and gets his feet set, he’s unbelievable and pretty much never misses. However, if he doesn’t get his feet set, or if somebody is in his face, he can barely hit the backboard. This is a lot like how Drew Neitzel was on threes. The problem for Summers this year is that with Allen and Lucious gone, everyone knows that he’s the shooter. Consequently, he’s never open. We’re also not running ball screens to spring him for shots.
2. Athletic plays // lob dunks. Again, Summers’ abilities are impressive, but someone’s got to throw the ball to him on the lob, and honestly, we don’t really have anyone on the team that seems to have the timing right. Lucas has never been great at it and Appling probably hasn’t played with Summers enough. All season long, I’ve seen attempted lobs to Durrell that were simply off the mark. As for making athletic plays on his own, he’s got to have a path to the basket. He’s not a great ball handler, so he needs to be able to get to the rim in 2 or 3 steps. Like the 3-point shooting, everyone knows this and they’re not giving him the path.
In my opinion, there’s not really anything wrong with Summers. I think a lot of it is circumstance. The team is just not built to take advantage of his skills and our opposition is actively game-planning to take him out of the game. Summers reminds me somewhat of Maurice Ager, but without the ball handling skills.
On the three headed monster that is our Center position, I was also perplexed as to why Sherman got all the minutes in the 2nd half while Payne and Nix sat on the bench. I thought Payne was clearly our most dominant player in the first half. Sherman played well, and he’s probably the best scorer around the basket of the 3, but he’s also the weakest (can’t post up), has the worst hands, and is the worst re-bounder. I think we’d have been better served last night with more Payne and Nix. Their shooting percentage might have been lower, but they’d have taken more shots and collected more rebounds.
Anyway, those are my thoughts for the day.
I think there's some truth there re: Summers
Although I don’t discount the armchair psychoanalysis stuff completely, either.
Fight for The Only Colors: Green and White!
by KJ@theonlycolors on Feb 16, 2011 8:56 PM CST up reply actions
Summers deserves criticism
But this is a well thought out response to it.
People complain about seeing him standing around on the perimeter. I think the blame for that falls on the coaches. This isn’t a Calipari, drive and dish, drive and dish some more, offense.
They are running sets almost every time down the court. And if the set isn’t designed for Durrell, it’s his job to spread the floor and create spacing.
That said, he obviously deserves some criticism for not attacking off the sets they do run for him. But I do think that he was a bit of a victim of his own success. His tourney run last year both raised our expectations for him, and raised his profile for opposing teams. Tough combination for a guy who frankly, if we are being honest with ourselves, has always struggled with inconsistency. Plenty of people griping about his performance for stretches of the B10 conference season last year.
I guess I agree that they need more from him. But I am just not that comfortable with people trying to diagnose what is going on in his head, questioning his heart, toughness, character, effort, etc. We don’t know this kid. We watch him on TV. We haven’t seen the countless hours he’s put in the gym to get where he is. Even with as much talent as Summers has, you don’t get where he is and accomplish what he has without working your ass off at the game of basketball. We don’t know what plays the coaches are calling or not calling.
Yea, clearly the team needs more from Summers. But personally I’m gonna try to keep the disection of him to what’s happening on the court and not try to make judgements about the character of a 21 or 22 year old guy i’ve never met.
by trivialstuff16 on Feb 16, 2011 9:04 PM CST up reply actions
I think there is definitely support for your take on Summers
I had a similar take a little while ago here.
Needs a path to the basket?
Ask Stanley Robinson about that. To me, that one specific play justifies the criticism that has followed over the ensuing two years. Because we KNOW he’s got it in him to be intense and to harness his awesome athletic ability. Sorry, I just don’t buy the whole “he raised our expectations with the great Tourney run but he was never really that good” argument. He IS really that good, which is what makes it so maddening to see his talents go to waste.
"You can look at the dinosaur that weighs you down or you can look at the big pot of gold (and) try to say, 'You know what? I'm going to try to live up to expectations.' " -Tom Izzo, Iron Mountain Philosopher
by Ducking Delvon on Feb 17, 2011 8:11 AM CST up reply actions
If I was Summers I would cry.
I’m not mentally tough enough to withstand the amount of criticism he has gotten. It’s part of being an impact player on a D1 college basketball team, but it has to hurt.
Random stuff
I watched this one at the bar with a grad school buddy from OSU. We both thought the officiating was horrible generally and that there were several egregiously bad calls against MSU in the second half.
We both thought MSU played well under the circumstances. Specifically, my OSU buddy was impressed that MSU was holding the line while giving so many minutes to walk-ons.
More Kebler
The play that I think was the best demonstration of why Mike Kebler deserves more minutes than Summers is the play where Craft stole the ball from Lucas and Kebler hustled back and blocked his shot emphatically. Then, another Buckeye (Diebler) trailing the play got the rejection and got fouled by Kebler.
1) Kebler was the only Spartan to get back.
2) If Lucas or Summers trails the play, we get the ball back and it might even be a momentum changer.
3) I’m not even sure he fouled Diebler as much as Diebler colliding into him.
All you Summers Apologists seem to look only at points scored. Basketball is so much more than a pretty, open jump shot or a high vertical. Of course we need the scoring, that is obvious. But, would you really rather have Summers shooting over Lucas, Green, Roe, or the 3-headed Center?
by greensincebirth on Feb 16, 2011 10:59 PM CST reply actions
delvon roe
say what you want about his offensive struggles but this kid has pretty much given up any chance of a basketball career hes had for this team between last years tournament and trying to give it a go the other night. one of my favorites
+1
Guy gives his all every single time. Should be one of everyone’s favorites.
PP-TPW.
The Only Colors
Time for Summers to pull a Torbert?
I think it might’ve been mentioned above but I would like to see Summers come off the bench as a 6th man. I know that some people might argue that it will be tough for someone struggling on offense and defense to get in the flow of the game this way….I think it would help avoid early foul trouble.
I also think that Payne needs to play at least 15 mins. a game for the rest of the season especially if Nix is only able to give us help in spurts.
I’d like to see a Payne/Roe/Green/Lucas/Appling starting lineup on Saturday.
by RickTheBloggerMartel on Feb 17, 2011 5:43 AM CST reply actions
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