Is this Year's frontcourt actually better than last years?
(Bump. -- Ed.)
Following up on Ducking Delvon's post on last year's backcourt compared to this year's, I thought it would be useful to compare this year's frontcourt to last year's. I'm not sure where to categorize Dawson and Summers. Both play basically the same position, but they are not the same player. Summers shot lots of 3s, Dawson shoots far fewer of them. Basically for much of last year we had a 2 man frontcourt of Green and Roe, with Nix and Payne subbing in and Summers basically at small forward (Appling at 2 and Lucious coming in for Lucas while he was still here). So I guess there will be some overlap here in that I will include Summers as a front court player. That gives us a front court for last year of Summers, Green, Roe, Sherman, Nix, Payne, and Thornton. This year we have Dawson, Green, Nix, Payne, Thornton, Gauna, and Byrd. I'm using tempo-free stats from all of last year for those players who played last year, vs tempo free stats YTD for this year. The rest follows below the jump.
Starting with percentage of minutes played, offensive rating, and usage rate (percentage of possesions used as listed on Statsheet) the comparisons break down as follows:
| Min% | Orating | Usage | Min% | Orating | Usage | ||
| Green | 74.4 | 107.2 | 25.7 | Green | 80.4 | 106.8 | 27 |
| Roe | 58.3 | 107.5 | 15.9 | Byrd | 19.5 | 93.4 | 17.2 |
| Summers | 72.5 | 98.7 | 20.7 | Dawson | 52.1 | 107.2 | 20.7 |
| Nix | 17.8 | 98.3 | 20.7 | Nix | 45.6 | 108.8 | 21.8 |
| Payne | 22.2 | 89.8 | 18.6 | Payne | 43.9 | 115.6 | 18 |
| Sherman | 29.8 | 99 | 14.3 | Gauna | 15.1 | 95.8 | 21.3 |
| Thornton | 27.3 | 93.2 | 14.1 | Thornton | 44.3 | 118.8 | 12.8 |
| 302.3 | 693.7 | 130 | 300.9 | 746.4 | 138.8 |
We're using our front court slightly more than last year, but the real difference is that our front court is much more effective this year as judged by total offensive rating. They're, as a group, playing a similar percentage of minutes but they are clearly doing something to earn a higher offensive rating than last year. Green is the spitting image of last year despite consuming a slightly higher number of possessions, but Dawson is a major upgrade over Summers. Nix and Payne have both improved markedly. Nix has taken most of Roe's minutes and he's playing a hair better on offense than Roe, but much better than last year. His game has improved quite a bit and he shoots more than Roe did. Payne has also seen major improvements on offense and is playing more than last year. Thornton is also playing a lot more and doing so more effectively than last year. Basically Payne/Thornton/Dawson are major upgrades over Payne/Sherman, Thornton (last year's version) and Summers. Ideally all these stats would be weighted by minutes played so that a poor stat in a particular area for someone who plays relative spot minutes wouldn't skew the aggregate results, but I don't have time for that right now.
Moving on to effective FG percentage, ORpercentage, and FTrate:
| eFG | Oreb% | Ftrate | eFG | Oreb% | Ftrate | ||
| Green | 47.9 | 9.5 | 41.1 | Green | 47.3 | 9.1 | 34.5 |
| Roe | 48.2 | 9.3 | 70 | Byrd | 33.9 | 6.1 | 17.8 |
| Summers | 47.3 | 4.2 | 21.3 | Dawson | 55.1 | 12 | 30.8 |
| Nix | 60 | 14.6 | 113.3 | Nix | 57.4 | 13.4 | 30.6 |
| Payne | 47.2 | 11.8 | 48.6 | Payne | 60.8 | 11.1 | 73.9 |
| Sherman | 69.5 | 8.2 | 43.4 | Gauna | 61.2 | 9.2 | 48.3 |
| Thornton | 38 | 8.9 | 21.1 | Thornton | 45.3 | 6.3 | 88.3 |
| 358.1 | 66.5 | 358.8 | 361 | 67.2 | 324.2 |
Not much to see here - both teams are pretty even in all these categories although this year's team has a slight edge in Offensive rebounding and shooting. Next we turn to turnover percentage and assist percentage:
| Assist% | TO% | Assist% | TO% | Ftrate | ||
| Green | 30.5 | 18.2 | Green | 20.1 | 18 | |
| Roe | 12 | 18 | Byrd | 17.2 | 17.8 | |
| Summers | 4.8 | 14.3 | Dawson | 12.8 | 21.2 | |
| Nix | 6.7 | 26.1 | Nix | 11.4 | 20.5 | |
| Payne | 3.3 | 22.3 | Payne | 3 | 19.3 | |
| Sherman | 6.1 | 28.8 | Gauna | 0 | 26.3 | |
| Thornton | 11.5 | 23.8 | Thornton | 9.8 | 20.8 | |
| 74.9 | 151.5 | 74.3 | 143.9 |
Again, on aggregate not much difference here, although the turnovers have been reduced fairly significantly. Nix's assist rate has improved quite a bit. Green has tapered off some in that area. Not having Sherman on the team really improves the turnover rate. Summers, for a guy who spent a fair amount of time as a guard, had an abysmal assist rate.
Now on to defensive stats, Dreb%, Steal%, and Block%:
| Dreb% | Block% | Steal% | Dreb% | Block% | Steal% | ||
| Green | 23.5 | 4 | 3.5 | Green | 23.5 | 4.1 | 2.7 |
| Roe | 15.3 | 5.6 | 2 | Byrd | 5.6 | 1.2 | 3 |
| Summers | 12.4 | 0.8 | 1.1 | Dawson | 11.5 | 4.5 | 2.7 |
| Nix | 13 | 3.5 | 2.2 | Nix | 12.8 | 2.9 | 2.9 |
| Payne | 18.4 | 9.9 | 1.7 | Payne | 16.8 | 6.8 | 2.5 |
| Sherman | 16.8 | 2.2 | 1.4 | Gauna | 9.1 | 3.3 | 0.5 |
| Thornton | 12.8 | 0.8 | 0.8 | Thornton | 15.6 | 0.3 | 2.8 |
| 112.2 | 26.8 | 12.7 | 94.9 | 23.1 | 17.1 |
These individual stats don't really tell us how the team as a whole is performing - it looks like we are significantly worse at defensive rebounding this year based on individual performance, but if you look at the rebounding percentage for the team, the difference is less significant than the individual stats would lead you to believe. Basically, we're a little better than last year at offensive rebounding and slightly worse at defensive rebounding. We are turning teams over at a higher rate. Nix and Payne are playing much better than last year and are playing more minutes. Nix vs. Roe last year would be a wash, except Roe was a low usage player. Nix is more willing to shoot and this year they are going in at a high rate. The combination of Thornton/Dawson is a significant upgrade over Summers. Dawson is scoring better, dishes more assists, and grabs more rebounds. I also suspect he plays better D. Thornton is also playing more effectively than last year and some of the minutes Summers played are going to him. Not to be lost in all of this is the teamwide efficiency. According to Ken Pomeroy's stats, we're roughly 6 points better on offensive efficiency and about the same improvement has been seen on defense, which pushes our overall efficiency margin to a 12 point improvement. Now that we're into the conference season it would not be a surprise to see a little regression, but we are playing much better than last year on both ends of the floor.
This is a FanPost, written by a member of the TOC community. It does not represent the official positions of The Only Colors, Inc.--largely because we have no official positions.
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Big differences
I was really anxious to see the difference between Nix this year and last as far as usage. He’s using roughly the same percentage.
OR% tells the real story, wow. It’s very impressive what he’s done.
It seems like he’s put on some weight but his stamina has improved to the point that he can still play without passing out.
The improvements of Derrick Payne and Green and addition of Dawson has made for a formidable frontcourt.
Green is kind of a matchup problem from game to game(goes both ways as he struggles to guard some guys still) and Dawson gives the team the key ingredient they were missing last year, an athletic wing.
He’ll be interesting to watch in these next 2 games.
I don’t think NW or UM has anybody that can guard him.
I wonder if they’ll feature him more on offense.
"Long range from the baseline, Swish!"
If you mean guard Dawson
I’d say Hardaway is athletic enough to stay on him, but if you mean Green, I don’t think there is anybody on M that can stop him. He’s too big & strong for everybody except Jordan Morgan, who will have his hands full with Paynix. I think that would leave Smotrycyz (sp?) on Green, which I see as a major advantage for MSU. He could pound the lane at will on him.
Of course, if they play that stupid 1-3-1 or a 2-3 zone, they’ll be collapsing on the ball whenever it comes inside, and Appling, Wood, Green, Trice & (gasp!) AT will have to make them pay for it by raining J’s all game.
But let’s see them take down NW, first.
I was referring to Dawson
Too big too strong for anybody on either team.
I’d like to see him get going here.
"Long range from the baseline, Swish!"
Dawson is due for his breakout game,
and soon. And when it happens it will be awesome.
by MSUDersh on Jan 12, 2012 6:52 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
UM's 1-3-1
With the way we are moving the ball If they collapse inside (which they have to because they cannot handle us inside) Nix and Green are good passers out of the post and we should get open looks and just need to knock them down. They can’t play man on us that would get comical. Also since they play Zone with our size inside we should mop up on the Offensive Glass and get easy second chance points.
On the flip side I love our defense against that 3 pt shooting offense they run. Appling will shut down Trey Burke cut off the penetration and dish and they will simply have to make ridiculous contested 3’s to beat us and if that happens you just tip your hat. Key Match up is AT / Wood / Dawson on Hardaway.
We are deeper and more talented at every position time to put them back in their place! Go Green
With Nix, it's all about the minutes
He has improved – he’s taken 6 percentage points off his turnover rate, and has nearly doubled his assist rate. He’s also got a pretty stellar eFG percentage, but he had that last year. The big difference is he’s a fairly high-usage guy and has maintained his efficiency while more than doubling his minutes played. Payne is also more likely to “use” his possessions than Roe was.
The big difference there is not that Roe was bad at converting so much as that he wasn’t used on offense – either we were getting the ball to him but he wasn’t shooting, or we just weren’t getting the ball to him. I think, given that Nix had a high usage rate last year in his limited minutes, that it was probably the latter – we got him the ball some but he didn’t feel comfortable trying to score. Word last year was that his knees wouldn’t really let him be a scoring option – just bad luch with injuries.
Dawson’s higher eFG rate is because he’s taking shots close to the rim rather than jump shots. He’s more of a true small forward while Summers was more of a guard-type wing.
Where Dawson is really better than Summers is at dishing – Summers just could not or would not generate assists. That’s a major flaw for a guard-wing. Dawson has already eclipsed Summers in assists halfway through the year. Having someone there who can generate scoring opportunities for others when their own shot isn’t there makes the offense run a lot better.
by TheCrestedHelm on Jan 13, 2012 10:35 AM CST up reply actions
Speaking of Dawson
He shows up on a curious list in this weeks SI Power Rankings:
Starting, at Syracuse, is mostly a ceremonial thing. The Orange have two subs (C.J. Fair and Dion Waiters) who play more minutes than two starters (Rakeem Christmas and Scoop Jardine). Christmas, a freshman power forward, occupies a particularly strange role: While he’s started all 17 games, he averages just 12.4 minutes per game. I combed through the rotations of all 32 teams that appear in this week’s Power Rankings to see if any players who’ve started 100 percent of the time average fewer minutes than Christmas … and none existed. From Power Ranked teams, these are the 10 full-time starters with the least PT:
Fewest Mins by Full-time Starters (Min. 15 games)
Rk. Player, Team Min/G G/GS Fouls/40
1. Rakeem Christmas, Syracuse 12.4 17/17 7.0
2. Keaton Miles, West Virginia 13.7 17/17 5.7
3. Brice Massamba, UNLV 16.8 17/17 5.9
4. Michael Hart, Gonzaga 18.1 15/15 5.6
5. Nate Lubick, Georgetown 19.3 16/16 4.4
6. A.J. Walton, Baylor 20.4 16/16 4.8
7. Branden Dawson, Mich. State 21.0 17/17 2.2
8. Jeff Withey, Kansas 21.2 15/15 5.0
9. Assane Sene, Virginia 21.3 15/15 5.6
10. Scoop Jardine, Syracuse 21.7 17/17 1.3
The columns got thrown off in the paste but basically of the teams in the power rankings he’s a starter that plays less than most but not because of foul trouble.
I wonder if this will be how his season goes or if his minutes increase from here.
"Long range from the baseline, Swish!"
How about Payne?
He’s started all but one game, and is 8th on MSU in minutes, behind Nix, Trice & AT off the bench. At 17.7 mpg, he would be at #4, right ahead of Hart from Gonzaga.
good point
For some reason that makes more sense.
I wish it didn’t.
"Long range from the baseline, Swish!"
I wonder if
Izzo does this somewhat intentionally. I know this sounds like some crazy paranoia (and it probably is) but what if Izzo plays Dawson fewer minutes so that he DOESN’T start sniffing his draft status? Call me crazy, I probably am, but I’m a sucker for conspiracy theory and I’m drunk on a plane right now.
Thoughts
Great stuff! Love the advanced stats.
I wanted to point out one thing though. Now, maybe whatever you used to generate the tables automatically sums the columns – but looking as just the sum totals actually somewhat discredits just how much the frontcourt has improved (IMHO).
For instance the increase in cumulative Orating (693.7→746.4) looks like a substantial increase of 7.6% (the increase in cumulative usage is 6.85). As you point out at the end of your third paragraph sums actually aren’t that useful unless they are weighted against each other, and minutes. You can get a sense of the improvement by looking at the table, but if you multiply across (before summing – because the weighting is player dependant!) the weighted improvement is actually a 12% bump*. Nearly a 60 improvement over the already substantial improvement that it looks like we are seeing.
This doesn’t change any of your analysis, but I think it gives it even more impact. The one caveat I have is that we are not yet into the meat of the B1G season and some of this improvement has been piled up against smaller teams. Yet, at the same time visually the front court play actually seems improved to me since the start of the B1G season so hopefully continued maturation will help offset early size advantages.
In any case, here hoping the big guys can keep up this pace!
I used ORatingPctMin/100*Usage/100 and came out with a cumulative weighted ORating of 60.41 for last year and a 67.65 for this year.
Yeah, I should have weighted them
but I was halfway into the post before I thought of it. Definitely weighting by minutes gives a more accurate picture, which I would have done if I’d thought of it sooner. I was not expecting this level of improvement in our frontcourt. Payne and Nix have both improved nicely over the summer. Dawson is playing pretty well, and will likely play even better (unless he hits a freshman wall) once he adapts fully to the college game.
by TheCrestedHelm on Jan 13, 2012 1:23 PM CST up reply actions
This is me. Just me and not a value judgement.
I’ve got a background in analysis and accounting and grew up preparing stats for my computer (and later nintendo) baseball teams using a notebook.
I’ve even taken two graduate level statistics classes…understand the concepts etc.
I try to read these advanced stats (for baseball as well) and my eyes just glaze over. I don’t know why. Like I said I enjoy analysis, but I just don’t get or really want to get these new ones.
I guess I’m just at a point that I want to watch the games and players that play and enjoy the moment.
Please understand this isn’t a stats are dumb or you nerds need to go back to your mom’s basement type screed. I’m glad you guys do this and that people enjoy it. I’m glad that you add a little narrative to explain what your analysis means.
Go Green.
I'm no stats guy either
I’m more of an “eye test” kind of a guy. I think the best analysis would involve both objective & subjective factors, ie, be somewhere in the middle. Stats certainly tell a part of the story, but by no means the entire story.
Stats
To me stats are a value added thing they increase my enjoyment. The both help validate and inform my application of “eye test”. Advanced and tempo-free simply add more context to conventional ways of measuring and enjoying the game. I also just like spreadsheets… but to each their own :D
Stats I like
These are the ones that count.
Football 2010- Big Ten Champs! 11 wins
Football 2011 -Legends Champs -Best Regular B1G Season Team record – 7-1
Basketball 2010 Big Ten Champs-Mens
Basketball 2010 Big Ten Champs-Womans
Dantonio with back to back 11 wins seasons (something Bo Shem never did and Woody did only twice)
Izzo – (no need to list) If I said anymore you would think I was bragging.
by jumpinjohnnyg on Jan 13, 2012 10:04 PM CST up reply actions
This is where "advanced" stats help (or at least some perspective)
I heart Dantonio, but 11 wins is relative





















