MSU/UM Football - Yes, Virginia, there really is a Rivalry
(Bump. -- Ed.)
I had considered posting this shortly after the 4th win in a row over UM, when many of the UM fans were stating that it still wasn't a rivalry with MSU. Their true "rival" was OSU, which had in fact dominated them for the better part of the last 10 years. But this week's loss to UM and the increased discussion of "The Rivalry" made me dust off the data, apply a few more filters, and come to the conclusion that there is a true rivalry with MSU/UM.
The Analysis:
I took the win-loss and home/away records from the very first varsity game played against UM. Source was the MSU historical records as published in football game programs.
Interesting Fact: MSU played UM 3 times as a JV team. Lost quite handily in all 3. Those games are not counted.
MSU wins were scored a 1, UM wins a -1, and ties a 0. I then created 3 rolling averages: 10 year, 17 year, and 25 year. I chose these based on typical perception cycles. If a team dominates the other over a span of 10 years, it starts to change the collective perception of either team. I chose 17, since that is the typical age of a HS recruit, when they are making their decisions about what school to choose, and may elect a "winning" team vs. a "losing" team . And 25 was chosen to reflect the longer memory and generational impact - your dad's Spartans and your Spartan's aren't the same team.
I then graphed the results to get a visual look.
If the rolling average is above 0.75 or below -0.75, the team with the average on their side can be said to be "owning" the other, and isn't much of a rivalry. Between 0.25 and 0.75 on the high end of the index, or between -0.25 and -0.75, is a middle ground that shows dominance by one team but indicates that the tide may be turning, depending on consecutive wins/losses. But if the rolling average is between 0.25 and -0.25 (close to 0), then neither team has a distinct advantage, and there is a significant increase in give-and-take of wins and losses, leading to a rivalry, when either team can win and contests are more hotly debated.
Interesting Fact: In 2010, Both 10 year and 17 year lines crossed into the 0.25>0<-0.25 "Rivalry Zone". In 2011, the 25 year line did as well, the first time when all 3 lines were in the Rivalry Zone since 1975. (Coincidentally, my birth year.) The only other time that all three lines were in this zone was 1958. Further, all three lines starting trending up in 1949, the year before we joined the Big Ten, and by 1953, when we started athletics in the Big Ten, all three were very close to the zone.
But let's go one step further. UM holds an overall advantage in the series, 67-32-5. But what they seem to overlook is that they have a HUGE advantage in where the game is played, as more than twice as many games have been played in AA vs. in EL (71-33). One would expect them to have a better winning percent based on the fact that they played at home much more often. I'll let you figure out what to deduce from this. (Mine is something along the lines of that this is proof of the arrogant bastardry of UM, in they would refuse to play in EL.)
Interesting Fact: Between 1910 and 1952, the teams met 41 times, 37(!) of them in AA, and only 4 times in EL.
So using a factor of 0.667 (figuring that you would expect to win 2 out of 3 home games), UM's expected win total was 47, vs. an actual win total of 48. Not an overwhelming domination, as they would have you believe. MSU's expected win total in EL is 22 vs. and actual of 12. (Ties aren't included in this). To their credit, UM teams have fared well in road wins vs. expected. UM's expected win total in EL is 11, vs. an actual of 19. MSU's expected win total in AA is 24 vs. actual of 20.
This is a FanPost, written by a member of the TOC community. It does not represent the official positions of The Only Colors, Inc.--largely because we have no official positions.
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Very interesting
And WOW, it’s hard to believe that so few games have been played in EL. Though if you take out the pre-MSU in the B1G era, it’s much closer to even.
What is the record once MSU was in the B1G??
is there
supposed to be charts or graphs or something? I don’t see anything but a link that appears broken.
Reminds me of a book title
“Been Down So Long It Looks Like Up To Me” by Richard Farina, but it looks like we’re coming out of the ocean onto the land.
They just say we're not a rival
They hate losing to us more than they hate losing to OSU, but they might like beating OSU better than they like beating us. We’re both their rivals, but they see OSU as another historically “great” program. Therefore losing to them hurts less than losing to a “lesser” program (us) because they are losing to an equal. Beating OSU trumps beating us because that means they beat another “great” program rather than getting a win against a “lesser” one. Sans the rivalry, losing to us would be comparable to losing to Illinois – something that indicates they’re sub-par this year but doesn’t carry any extra sting beyond that. I’m not saying we’re on par with Illinois, but that is how they view us – as a perennial also-ran that puts together a good year now and then. In reality, they hate losing to us more than they hate losing to Illinois or Pudue, ergo we are a rival.
Pick up John Bacon's "Three and Out" for additional insight into what people around the program over there really think
Some of the discussions about losing to MSU are really interesting to see. The 2010 loss to us, despite being their first loss, basically shattered the confidence of EVERYONE except the players. Bacon goes into how the whole program — and a lot of people around town — could feel the collapse coming, and how much the loss to MSU really meant.
… It’s also a great book to see how despicable that school really is from the inside out. I highly recommend it, and wanted to highlight that particular part as well since it adds to debunking all the bullshit around UM sidewalk fans saying how it’s not a rivalry. People associated with Michigan football see it WAY differently.
"The open threads on game days are like fevered dreams: Everyone is hammered and then shit gets burned." - Truffle Shuffle
by The Ghost of John Hannah on Jan 27, 2012 6:18 PM CST reply actions
REMEMBER TO VOTE FOR DRAYMOND GREEN EACH DAY
http://www.seniorclassaward.com/vote/mens_basketball_2011-12/
I bookmarked this in my MSU section so it would help me to remember to vote.
Fan votes are 1/3 the points for the Lowe’s Senior Class Award. Wouldn’t it be Great for
us to have the winner in fball and bball plus Green deserves it! Right now he has a slight
lead over Ronald Nored and Robbie Hummel.
Vote
While nothing to do with this story, I will vote on this every day a) to hopefully see Dayday win and b) to stop Zach Novak winning.
by ChicagoSpartan on Jan 30, 2012 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
Great call
And in the Chicago tradition, voter early & vote often – from work, home, in-laws, public computers, demo models at the store, etc.
Also, that same link works very well on mobile browsers, so no excuse not to vote while you’re sitting on the train/can, too!
by MSUDersh on Jan 30, 2012 12:30 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I don't view UM as a rival
I think MSU’s only rival is Wisconsin. Close meaningful games is what makes a rivalry, with neither team dominating the overall record during that period.
UM doesn’t fit this because MSU has clearly surpassed UM, the games haven’t been close, and the games haven’t really meant anything.
Wisconsin on the other hand has meant the B1G championship or a share the last several years, the games have been close, and both teams have won.
I just view Wisconsin as MSU’s rival now, and UM is just another team in my opinion. Like Indiana or something.
Incorporate men's basketball
If a football win/loss is +1/-1, then how about +0.5/-0.5 for basketball games, showing them separately and combined? I’d be interested in seeing that. I also nominate someone else to do the work. Thanks.
Tonight's going to be a good night.
are you saying you don't think I could do it?
Just kidding. I’d be interested to see it too, but don’t have the time right now.
by tomax powers on Jan 30, 2012 10:38 AM CST up reply actions
True rivalries
I know that this is just a statistical look at a rivalry, and that there are many flavors of rivalries. I just wanted some mathematical proof and ammo to shut up the UM-ers that talk smack. I thought about running the numbers for all of the B1G schools vs. MSU and vs. each other, but that gets to be a lot to handle, given that I have been travelling all but 4 workdays this year.
I think our new rival is now Wisconsin…I’d love to see that continue to grow and flourish, so we can tell UM that just like they think their rival is OSU, ours is not them. Boy, that might steam them.
Maybe I will do a follow-up on Wisconsin. But I also don’t think that rivalries are measured just in the win/loss column – factors like geography, frequency, and importance of key games are big contributors…and lately, that means ol’ Bucky is a better rival.
Love your work, TP
And one of the best things, IMO, about TOC & to a degree a lot of SBN blogs is that you do this bc of a passion, not bc of a paycheck.
So here’s to you, Pete, Intrptrvlr, KJ, Heck, Conner, and any of the other TOC editors or contributors I may have missed. Keep up the great work, guys, all of us readers are very grateful for it!
by MSUDersh on Jan 30, 2012 12:28 PM CST via mobile up reply actions

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