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Around SBN: Kobe Bryant Will Never Top Michael Jordan

That's deep, man

With a 25-point blowout of a pretty good opponent between us and the loss in Ann Arbor, we can go back to what we were doing before: marveling at just how good this basketball team has been, preseason expectations to the contrary. Despite the back-to-back losses to Northwestern and Michigan, MSU remains right on the edge of the top 10 nationally according to the human pollsters and has actually risen to #4 in the country by KenPom's calculations. (We'll have to take a temporary hiatus from giving Mr. Pomeroy such a hard time about overrating Wisconsin.)

An interesting aspect of MSU's unexpected emergence as a national contender is that there really hasn't been a breakout star in the mix. Draymond Green has been very good, but his numbers are basically right where they were last year. (MSU's team success does have him flying high in KenPom's Player of the Year rankings, though.) Keith Appling's development has probably been the biggest individual factor in the team's success, but 12.6 points and 4.0 assists per game don't exactly knock your socks off--and are well short of what Kalin Lucas posted last season.

Beyond those two players, no Spartan is averaging more than 10 points or 4 rebounds per game. That means a larger number of players are contributing smaller amounts of production.

The details after the jump

Star-divide

The correlation between player depth and team success shouldn't come as a surprise to long-time readers of this blog. A metric we've looked at in the past is "depth ratio." The basics:

Depth Ratio = (minutes played by top two players) / (minutes played by 8th and 9th players)

This ratio allows us to compare a single number across different teams and captures two key aspects of having depth:

  • Not relying too heavily on one or two players to play nearly all of the minutes in important games, thereby reducing their ability to defend, rebound, and push the ball in transition with the intensity Izzo prefers.
  • Having enough bench players to allow everyone to play hard every minute they’re on the floor and be able to deal with foul trouble. Nearly every basketball team has to have seven guys who play significant minutes (five starters plus one perimeter bench player and one interior bench player). Having two more bench players you can count on is what sets a good Izzo team apart from other teams.

Historically, the magic number has been 3.00. Izzo-coached teams with ratios below that number have contended in the Big Ten and advanced to at least the second weekend in NCAA Tournament play. Those with ratios above that number have not. (The exception was the 2009-10 team, which defied the odds throughout its tournament run.)

I've updated my depth ratio table to include last season and the current season:

6849475973_8610e01348_medium

Notes:

  • The depth on last year's team is somewhat overstated here since it includes Korie Lucious' minutes as the #8 player, despite his midseason departure.
  • The ratio for the current team will creep up over the rest of the season, since the bench is shorter in conference play than in nonconference play. But, based, on conference playing time numbers to date, it should still end up at about 2.90.

As good as the team's depth ratio looks this season, you could argue it actually understates how deep the team is. Digging back even further in the archives, here's Mr. Gasaway's (less flexible) definition of "Izzo depth" (on which my work on depth was built):

Let's define "Izzo depth" as seven players each getting between about 40 and 70 percent of the minutes. As seen here, the 2005 team had Izzo depth. The 2006 team--while featuring three demonstrably more talented players than any member of the 2005 team--did not. The first went to the Final Four. The second lost in the first round. And there you have a neat little parable on talent vs. team.

The 2012 Spartans meet that standard and go one further: eight players are averaging more than 16 minutes per game. Going back a full decade-plus (to the 1999-2000 season), that statement cannot be said about any previous Tom Izzo team. (Five MSU teams over that period have had seven players at 40%+.) Izzo has always liked to talk about having six starters. This season, he has closer to eight.

While there have been a couple recent bumps in the road, the players on this team are doing what players on good Izzo teams do. The go-to guys (Green and Appling) are, more often than not, converting when they're gone to. The other upperclassmen (Austin Thornton, Derrick Nix, Adreian Payne) are fulfilling their roles more efficiently than they did the previous season. And the freshmen (Branden Dawson, Travis Trice, Brandan Kearney) are making mistakes but making enough positive contributions to offset them. As a bonus, you can add a transfer player (Brandon Wood) producing points at an extremely efficient clip.

In statistical terms, you've got:

  • Six guys with an individual offensive rating above 110 (every upperclassmen except Green, plus Kearney).
  • Eight guys with an individual defensive rebounding percentage of 10 or better.
  • Three guys with an individual block percentage of 4 or better.
  • Seven guys with an individual steal percentage of 2.5 or better.

(Bonus super fun statistical note: Austin Thornton currently leads the Big Ten in three-point shooting percentage during conference play at .692.)

Our expectations were down coming into this season, partially because the team only returned five significant contributors from last year. But, with six new faces added to the mix (including two players, Russell Byrd and Alex Gauna, who haven't been required to make major contributions so far) Tom Izzo has found enough parts to play basketball the way he wants it played.

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Depth

Thanks KJ. Glad we have the depth this year. I think it helped to have a little lighter non-conference schedule. More guys were able to get valuable minutes and work their way into the system and rotation.

One small correction- I wouldn’t consider Payne an upperclassman.

After the game, why not check out www.zazzle.com/donnierocky*

by donaldo on Jan 23, 2012 7:45 PM CST reply actions  

This is the 'Izzo depth' post I've been waiting for

Thanks. It’s officially time to get excited about a possible tournament run.

by njd on Jan 23, 2012 8:09 PM CST reply actions  

You tha man KJ

I love this stuff!

by StickyGreen on Jan 23, 2012 9:57 PM CST via mobile reply actions  

Completely unrelated

But I just watched the most recent episode of The Journey…man I want to smoke UM on SuperBowl Sunday. BTN does a great job with that show.

by StickyGreen on Jan 23, 2012 10:50 PM CST via mobile reply actions  

Interestingly, while 2009-10 didn't hit the depth ratio number

that team had seven players getting 50%+ minutes (skewed slightly by Lucas’s injury – I think he was at about 75% before that, dropped to 69% after). The 8th and 9th men just didn’t get much time.

I've got this terrible pain in all the diodes down my left-hand side.
Bradley-Terry rankings for college football and basketball: because there aren't enough computer rankings already.

by SpartanDan on Jan 23, 2012 11:04 PM CST reply actions  

NCAA Tournament Only Depth Numbers

It would be interesting to see them because when Tournament time comes around, Izzo subs much less frequently.

by SpartyBasketball on Jan 23, 2012 11:26 PM CST reply actions  

I'm still a little skeptical that this team has a Final Four run in it

I reserve the right to change my mind about that as events unfold. At this point, the only wins we have worth crowing all that much about are Gonzaga and winning at Wisconsin, although that appears to be less difficult this year than in previous years. Still, beating Wisconsin in Wisconsin still counts for something, and maybe throw in Indiana.

This weekend’s game comes with an asterisk due to Purdue’s travel woes. If we can hold serve at home and pick up a couple of more road wins (@ Minnesota and @ one other) then I’ll be a believer. That would give us wins over Ohio State, Illinois, Michigan, Purdue, Indiana (perhaps 2 wins over one of them or Illinois them?) and two over Wisconsin.

Basically despite performing well, I’m concerned this team doesn’t have that extra gear that we had in 2008-09. That team had more experience (Morgan, Suton, Walton – all seniors) as well as depth. I guess I see Green= >Morgan, Appling=Lucas, but after that there’s a bit of a dropoff – Payne and Nix have played well this year, but they aren’t Suton equivalents, or at least it doesn’t seem like they are. Walton’s primary contributions were on the defensive end, but I’m not sure we’re getting quite as much out of Wood as Walton provided – maybe it’s close. Dawson has shown flashes but has to be more consistent – I guess he may be the equivalent of Chris Allen or Summers.

The bench on this year’s team seems about the same – maybe a bit better because we’re bringing Nix and Thornton off the bench and both are playing well. By the end of the year Kearney may be another big plus off the bench. Then again maybe that ’09 team seems better just because it did make a NC game run and won the conference comfortably. This team could be just as good statistically but win only a share of the title because the other good teams are better.

by TheCrestedHelm on Jan 24, 2012 10:35 AM CST reply actions  

Don't forget the win over Florida State

Looks pretty good now sicne they took down Dookie in cameron.

"i think it will be mostly feast the rest of the year,"

by Honeyman on Jan 24, 2012 11:23 AM CST up reply actions  

We whupped Indiana pretty good, too

When they were playing as well as anyone in the nation. Also, this team’s “worst” loss is clearly to NW on the road, the other losses are to two top-5 teams away from the Bres, and by a point to a top 12 at the time archrival on the road in a game that MSU had a chance to win at the end.

My biggest concern would be getting matched up in the same region as Kansas or Cuse. I think MSU can take down an OSU, Kentucky, even a Duke or UNC in the tournament setting.

Sure, teams like Mizzou, Murray State, Baylor, etc look great right now, but in tourney time every benefit of a doubt has to be given to Izzo. There’s a reason he’s Mr. March.

by MSUDersh on Jan 24, 2012 11:54 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

you may be right

But I wouldn’t use what’s happened so far as the barometer.
The latest versions of Coach Izzo teams are built to get better as the season goes along.
Even the great 09 team wasn’t supposed to go to the FF but peaked at the right time.
This team is right on course and while they’ve been good, can still get better.
There are really difficult tests coming up that will aid in that process as well as give a strong indicator of this team’s post season potential.
Those Wisconsin and Gonzaga wins are quality wins and so is FSU. Also the losses to UNC, Duke and the near miss at UM have or will serve to make this team stronger.

I look at this roster as compared to a team like Kentucky and it’s striking how similar the starting lineups are- dangerous PG off the dribble(check), long range bombing 2 guard(check), super athletic freshman wing(check), lanky shot blocking big(check), 6’7 playmaking 4 w/3pt range(check)
Now I don’t know if either team is headed to the FF but KY is widely considered the most talented team in the country and MSU is right there with them IMHO.
If Dawson consistently plays at the level Kidd-Gilchrist does and Payne can be half the defensive force Davis is, watch out.

"Long range from the baseline, Swish!"

by spartyball on Jan 24, 2012 11:46 AM CST up reply actions  

Right you are

about Morgan. Still, that team had more experience – Morgan basically started as a sophmore. Nix did not. I guess Wood is very experienced but he hasn’t played here before so we’re all still kind of learning what he can do at the Big Ten level.

I’m not giving up hope – I just think we need a couple more quality wins to complete our resume. I’d forgotten about the FSU win but that one does look good now. I mentioned Indiana but they appear to be coming back to earth some – still a nice win but not as nice as it was when we got it. I guess everyone in the Big Ten is coming back to earth some since conference play began. @NW is our worst loss – this team has a pretty high floor. I’m just not convinced yet that it has a high enough ceiling to make the Final Four – but if they continue to build the resume through the rest of the Big Ten season I’ll be a believer by the end.

by TheCrestedHelm on Jan 24, 2012 1:10 PM CST up reply actions  

true road losses don't hurt as much

plus NW’s win over Seton Hall is holding up nicely, if they can get a couple more quality B1G wins the loss won’t be nearly as bad

I’d say Illinois has come back to earth
IU hit some turbulence
Bucky is rising from the dead
OSU is still OSU
and UM hasn’t faced death yet but they’re about to

"Long range from the baseline, Swish!"

by spartyball on Jan 24, 2012 2:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Yup he got sick midway through sophomore season

Really too bad, he was never the same since. He was a Dickie V 1st team midseason AA that year, and was just owning games. If he played like that the whole season, would have been a lottery pick

by MSUDersh on Jan 25, 2012 9:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Road Wins

We need to win @ Minnesota and @ Illinois or PU split with OSU and I’ll think we’ll get a share of the B1G Championship.

It’s all going to come down to who wins the most road games.

by MSUMC25 on Jan 24, 2012 11:55 AM CST reply actions  

Very good stuff

Amazing that all 8 times Izzo has hit that “below 3.00” threshold, the team has at least made the Sweet 16 and 5 times made the Final Four.

I was surprised that the 03-04 team had such a high number, but looking back, we were really thin after the first 6 (Hill, Anderson, Torbert, Davis, Ager, Brown), with guys like Naymick, Andreas, Bograkos, Rowley, and Rashi Johnson.

"It was worth it. Every needle, every dose of medicine that I've taken. That's why you play the game. A chance to be on a Final Four team, a chance to win championships." Delvon Roe

by Ducking Delvon on Jan 24, 2012 12:26 PM CST reply actions  

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